+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: True Italics

  1. #1
    Banned stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    905
    Thanks
    532
    Thanked 789 Times in 258 Posts

    True Italics

    Hello People:

    Someone can help me to get the following information ...

    Do you know where I can find information to create a TRUE ITALIC (OBLIQUE) starting with a normal "REGULAR" font?

    Know it's a complicated issue, but I've searched and can not find anything verdderamente important. Hope I can lend a hand with this.

    They are infinitely appreciate.
    Last edited by stradivarious; 08-24-2014 at 08:33 PM.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to stradivarious For This Useful Post:

  3. #2
    Member zeitgeistsfo is a splendid one to behold zeitgeistsfo is a splendid one to behold zeitgeistsfo is a splendid one to behold zeitgeistsfo is a splendid one to behold zeitgeistsfo is a splendid one to behold zeitgeistsfo is a splendid one to behold zeitgeistsfo is a splendid one to behold
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    91
    Thanks
    467
    Thanked 729 Times in 72 Posts
    I'm not sure I understand your question entirely. True Italics are different from Obliques. You can create an Oblique from a Normal font by slanting it to the right, but a True Italic has different glyph shapes than the non-italic version of a typeface. Some more info can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italic_type.

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to zeitgeistsfo For This Useful Post:

  5. #3
    Banned stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    905
    Thanks
    532
    Thanked 789 Times in 258 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by zeitgeistsfo View Post
    I'm not sure I understand your question entirely. True Italics are different from Obliques. You can create an Oblique from a Normal font by slanting it to the right, but a True Italic has different glyph shapes than the non-italic version of a typeface. Some more info can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italic_type.

    Ok. Thanks for responding.

    Of course this of italic and oblique create confusions,
    not engage in polemics, better "OBLIQUE" (sanserif)

    eg ARIAL, imagine that the world exists only in ARIAL REGULAR,
    and we want make a "TRUE OBLIQUE" of ARIAL.

    Where can you get reliable information to build a "TRUE OBLIQUE" (sanserif)?
    and
    Where can you get reliable information to build a "TRUE OBLIQUE" (roman)?

    I hope you can help me, I'd appreciate it infinitely.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to stradivarious For This Useful Post:

  7. #4
    Junior Member xamiam is on a distinguished road
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    12
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 24 Times in 12 Posts
    Not sure where your need for making a true oblique comes from, as most software, word processors and graphic programs, have the ability to "fake" the italic by oblique'ing your font choice.

    More importantly, a true oblique is often seen as the poor man's italic from the fact that little to no time was really spent or invested in creating a proper italic. Personally, I do not use obliques unless absolutely necessary---if a font does not have a true italic and I want an italic, I find a new font.

    That being said, if you are really wanting to create a "true oblique" of a font so that you have an actual .otf or .tt that is oblique'd to your chosen angle and not the arbitrary angle of simply hitting the italic button in word, a program like TransType has the ability to create an oblique in a matter of seconds, while giving you the ability to adjust the angle.

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to xamiam For This Useful Post:

  9. #5
    Banned stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    905
    Thanks
    532
    Thanked 789 Times in 258 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by xamiam View Post
    Not sure where your need for making a true oblique comes from, as most software, word processors and graphic programs, have the ability to "fake" the italic by oblique'ing your font choice.

    More importantly, a true oblique is often seen as the poor man's italic from the fact that little to no time was really spent or invested in creating a proper italic. Personally, I do not use obliques unless absolutely necessary---if a font does not have a true italic and I want an italic, I find a new font.

    That being said, if you are really wanting to create a "true oblique" of a font so that you have an actual .otf or .tt that is oblique'd to your chosen angle and not the arbitrary angle of simply hitting the italic button in word, a program like TransType has the ability to create an oblique in a matter of seconds, while giving you the ability to adjust the angle.

    thanks for your opinion sir.
    But it's kinda confidential for purposes of carrying.
    I just need to know where I can find information to ...

    Where can you get reliable information to build a "TRUE OBLIQUE" (sanserif)? and
    Where can you get reliable information to build a "TRUE OBLIQUE" (roman)?

    Thanks In Advance!

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to stradivarious For This Useful Post:

  11. #6
    Member grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    133
    Thanks
    464
    Thanked 818 Times in 125 Posts
    Ok, you're essentially talking about designing a typeface, as creating a 'True' oblique requires knowlege of the design principles underlying the face itself. Many italic faces use different letterforms to the roman variant (particularly noticeable in the 'a', 'g' and 'e'), but there are examples of faces with sloped italics where the letterforms remain the same, a good example would be Univers.

    Even so, even if you simply wanted to create a face with a sloped italic, without any redesign of the letterforms, just applying a slant to the roman face would fail. This is because doing so alters some critical qualities of the face's design, particularly the contrast (difference between thin and thick strokes) and the axis (the line along which the letter 'o' would be symmetrical).

    For an example, take a look at this picture:
    http://imgur.com/kukel2D.jpg
    (I've linked it because it's a bit too big to show up well in the forum.)
    This is Univers 55, a face with no contrast in which the stroke width is supposed to be the same all the way through the character. On the left I've taken the lowercase 'o' and given it a radical slant of 50°. You can clearly see that the uniform contrast has been lost and some parts (the curve on the upper right) are far thicker than others (like the arms to the top left and lower right): the width of the letterform varies as a result of the axis imposed by the slant operation. At lower amounts of slant this is less obvious, but can still be clearly seen: the character on the right shows the 'true' Univers oblique in a red outline, with the slanted version in black behind it - they don't line up because the slanted version has had an axis imposed on it, whereas the 'true' oblique maintains the constant stroke width throughout. On a typeface that already has a contrast the imposed slant axis makes even more of a mess.

    A good reference is Bringhurst's 'Elements of Typographic Style', which will be in the books forum. Pages 56-59 have a discussion of how italic forms relate to the roman, and pages 124-125 might be useful as well. Certainly the first step to creating a 'true' sloped face would be to analyse the typeface you're going to manipulate, and be sure you know how its contrast and axis work. Then apply a gentle slant (10-14° is all that's needed) and go through it letter by letter, adjusting the contour so that it displays a consistent contrast and axis. Doing this properly is indeed going to be quite a lot of work.

  12. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to grakkle For This Useful Post:

  13. #7
    Banned stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    905
    Thanks
    532
    Thanked 789 Times in 258 Posts
    Post Fail

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to stradivarious For This Useful Post:

  15. #8
    Banned stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    905
    Thanks
    532
    Thanked 789 Times in 258 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by grakkle View Post
    Ok, you're essentially talking about designing a typeface, as creating a 'True' oblique requires knowlege of the design principles underlying the face itself. Many italic faces use different letterforms to the roman variant (particularly noticeable in the 'a', 'g' and 'e'), but there are examples of faces with sloped italics where the letterforms remain the same, a good example would be Univers.

    Even so, even if you simply wanted to create a face with a sloped italic, without any redesign of the letterforms, just applying a slant to the roman face would fail. This is because doing so alters some critical qualities of the face's design, particularly the contrast (difference between thin and thick strokes) and the axis (the line along which the letter 'o' would be symmetrical).

    For an example, take a look at this picture:
    http://imgur.com/kukel2D.jpg
    (I've linked it because it's a bit too big to show up well in the forum.)
    This is Univers 55, a face with no contrast in which the stroke width is supposed to be the same all the way through the character. On the left I've taken the lowercase 'o' and given it a radical slant of 50°. You can clearly see that the uniform contrast has been lost and some parts (the curve on the upper right) are far thicker than others (like the arms to the top left and lower right): the width of the letterform varies as a result of the axis imposed by the slant operation. At lower amounts of slant this is less obvious, but can still be clearly seen: the character on the right shows the 'true' Univers oblique in a red outline, with the slanted version in black behind it - they don't line up because the slanted version has had an axis imposed on it, whereas the 'true' oblique maintains the constant stroke width throughout. On a typeface that already has a contrast the imposed slant axis makes even more of a mess.

    A good reference is Bringhurst's 'Elements of Typographic Style', which will be in the books forum. Pages 56-59 have a discussion of how italic forms relate to the roman, and pages 124-125 might be useful as well. Certainly the first step to creating a 'true' sloped face would be to analyse the typeface you're going to manipulate, and be sure you know how its contrast and axis work. Then apply a gentle slant (10-14° is all that's needed) and go through it letter by letter, adjusting the contour so that it displays a consistent contrast and axis. Doing this properly is indeed going to be quite a lot of work.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    1.-

    Yess! Ok. I see that you know what I'm talking about.

    Talk about UNIVERSE and suppose that only exists today REGULAR version Ok.
    want the true oblique or true slanted version and want to build from the regular.

    I know the slant has redesigned the reliefs due to the distortion of its stroke It has the oblique reliefs redesigned due to the distortion of its stroke.


    2.-

    The root question is ...
    How to properly re-compose this distortion?
    http://i.imgur.com/kukel2D.jpg

    I imagine that is modified from the design software, such as illustrator, and is done from their anchor points, but:

    Is there a specific method and accurate?
    Are there specific steps to follow?
    Are measures established in default?

    Do you know where I can find this information reliable?

    If you can help me I'll appreciate infinitely!

    Note: For now us to ignore the Roman italics, as the Roman italics have specific and independent characters (That will be another occasion).

    By the way, I read the pages you recommended me, but I still doubt

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to stradivarious For This Useful Post:

  17. #9
    Member grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    133
    Thanks
    464
    Thanked 818 Times in 125 Posts
    I don't think there are specific steps involved in the process. Many type designers actually do a lot of work with pencil, paper and drafting tools, but there's no reason you can't do this work directly in Illustrator.

    It is possible to start with a slant and correct it, but it requires a lot of measuring as you go. The best way is probably to start with the counters (the white spaces inside the letterform). Then you build up the strokes of the character around them. As a simple example, if the roman 'o' is slightly oblong with no stroke contrast, you would tilt the inner oblong and then apply a stroke of constant thickness around the outer edge of the path. Generally, you'll find the process a lot easier if you think about it in terms of making strokes with a pen or brush around the areas defined by the counters. Illustrator will allow you to define your brush so it matches the desired contrast and axis.

    Some other books that might be useful:
    Code:
    Only the registered members can see the download links/content. please Register to gain full access.
    Karen Cheng's Designing Type might also be helpful, but I don't know a source for that.

    [BTW, in my last post I wasn't 100% accurate, Univers does, in fact, have a very slight variation in stroke width, which I was ignoring for the sake of the example.]

  18. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to grakkle For This Useful Post:

  19. #10
    Banned stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    905
    Thanks
    532
    Thanked 789 Times in 258 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by grakkle View Post
    I don't think there are specific steps involved in the process. Many type designers actually do a lot of work with pencil, paper and drafting tools, but there's no reason you can't do this work directly in Illustrator.

    It is possible to start with a slant and correct it, but it requires a lot of measuring as you go. The best way is probably to start with the counters (the white spaces inside the letterform). Then you build up the strokes of the character around them. As a simple example, if the roman 'o' is slightly oblong with no stroke contrast, you would tilt the inner oblong and then apply a stroke of constant thickness around the outer edge of the path. Generally, you'll find the process a lot easier if you think about it in terms of making strokes with a pen or brush around the areas defined by the counters. Illustrator will allow you to define your brush so it matches the desired contrast and axis.

    Some other books that might be useful:
    Code:
    Only the registered members can see the download links/content. please Register to gain full access.
    Karen Cheng's Designing Type might also be helpful, but I don't know a source for that.

    [BTW, in my last post I wasn't 100% accurate, Univers does, in fact, have a very slight variation in stroke width, which I was ignoring for the sake of the example.]


    Ok. this seems very interesting turn, understand what is mean when you refer to (spaces inside the letterform), I have seen a lot of that on Internet sites and is very useful, it seems very acceptable.

    We are on a good path, now, I have no experience in this, I do not watch a tutorial before doing work this too hard for me, and indeed the result is not acceptable and is fatal :S

    I would like to find a page or a tutorial where atleast explain a bit like doing this, in fact this was my question from the beginning.

    Do you know where I can find that information?

    I saw the books propose to me, but I still have the same obstacle.

    I have long been searching the internet and I get nothing, much of everything else and none of this. This is becoming a headache.

    Thank you for your response Mr.

    by the way, do not worry about your last comment, I am very attentive to the issue and make corrections when I read.

  20. Your ad here

  21. The Following User Says Thank You to stradivarious For This Useful Post:

  22. #11
    Member grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    133
    Thanks
    464
    Thanked 818 Times in 125 Posts
    You'd probably find it helpful to start out with calligraphy. Despite all the changes that have happened over the centuries, Western typefaces remain rooted in a tradition in which letters are formed with pen and ink. Italic faces are, of course, even closer to the calligraphic roots. People associate 'calligraphy' with elaborate scripts with wild flourishes, but actually it's simply about drawing letters, and a knowlege of calligraphy is very useful (probably essential) if you want to create a typeface design yourself.

    Learning calligraphy properly means getting a pen and ink and using lots of paper. But you can short-circuit the process and start with Illustrator. There are quite a few resources available teaching how to create calligraphy in illustrator. Here's one video I picked at random:
    Code:
    Only the registered members can see the download links/content. please Register to gain full access.
    Here's a post that covers the basics about brushes in Illustrator:
    Code:
    Only the registered members can see the download links/content. please Register to gain full access.
    and a video about them:
    Code:
    Only the registered members can see the download links/content. please Register to gain full access.
    The Logo, Font & Lettering Bible I linked in my last post has a lot of good stuff about creating letters in Illustrator.

    I'm afraid there's no simple Step 1. Step 2. Step 3. way of doing this, designing a typeface takes a fair amount of work (and people spend years training how to do it). But at least you aren't working from scratch. By taking the counters for each character and applying a tilt or shear to them, you have a foundation around which you can apply the stroke of the final character. That should make things a lot easier and ensure your sloped face matches the forms of the roman.

  23. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to grakkle For This Useful Post:

  24. #12
    Banned stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    905
    Thanks
    532
    Thanked 789 Times in 258 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by grakkle View Post
    You'd probably find it helpful to start out with calligraphy. Despite all the changes that have happened over the centuries, Western typefaces remain rooted in a tradition in which letters are formed with pen and ink. Italic faces are, of course, even closer to the calligraphic roots. People associate 'calligraphy' with elaborate scripts with wild flourishes, but actually it's simply about drawing letters, and a knowlege of calligraphy is very useful (probably essential) if you want to create a typeface design yourself.

    Learning calligraphy properly means getting a pen and ink and using lots of paper. But you can short-circuit the process and start with Illustrator. There are quite a few resources available teaching how to create calligraphy in illustrator. Here's one video I picked at random:
    Code:
    Only the registered members can see the download links/content. please Register to gain full access.
    Here's a post that covers the basics about brushes in Illustrator:
    Code:
    Only the registered members can see the download links/content. please Register to gain full access.
    and a video about them:
    Code:
    Only the registered members can see the download links/content. please Register to gain full access.
    The Logo, Font & Lettering Bible I linked in my last post has a lot of good stuff about creating letters in Illustrator.

    I'm afraid there's no simple Step 1. Step 2. Step 3. way of doing this, designing a typeface takes a fair amount of work (and people spend years training how to do it). But at least you aren't working from scratch. By taking the counters for each character and applying a tilt or shear to them, you have a foundation around which you can apply the stroke of the final character. That should make things a lot easier and ensure your sloped face matches the forms of the roman.
    __________________________________________________ ________________________________________________


    Excuse the delay, but I was offline for a moment.
    ohh, thanks a lot for your reply and links. I have looked at all and are quite interesting. Ok.

    Ok. all this problem is based on the image you propose:
    http://i.imgur.com/kukel2D.jpg
    This is exactly my problem, "How can I compose this ditortion"?

    I think that in a letter REGULAR (san serif) may not be so difficult,
    but imagine a "ROMANA (to roman oblique)" I think if it's very hard.

    Also, try to compose the lyrics to the naked eye by the anchor points on illustrator, but results are not as good, I think it is possible to immediately detect the disproportion of poor quality and its relief.

    When it comes to rasterize a letter that already exists is very easy to some extent, but there is when it comes to something new that does not exist, there is some reasoning and methodologies to follow, if one expects a good result. (that's what I would think)

    A good example: "PRINTROOT LOGO" (in illustrator)
    Suppose there is no "ITALIC" in your family tipographic,
    and the idea is to change the logo to "ITALIC" (only is a example)
    begin by mechanically tilting (FAUX ITALIC) but...

    from anchor points in illustrator
    How can compose your distortion?
    Only Are the naked eye?
    Is there a template for this?

    The idea is a decent result.

  25. The Following User Says Thank You to stradivarious For This Useful Post:

  26. #13
    Member grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    133
    Thanks
    464
    Thanked 818 Times in 125 Posts
    Ok, here goes. The PrintRoot logo is in Russo Sans, or something very similar, so that's what I used. For this example I'm assuming the characters have no contrast (constant stroke thickness).

    First, print the charatcer on top of a filled rectangle. measure the width of the stroke that makes up the character (in this case it was 110pt).

    Then select the text and convert to outlines (Type->Create Outlines). Now select the whole layer, open the Pathfinder menu and select Minus Front.

    This will create a compound shape made up of the counters. Select it and apply a shear:

    The most important counter is the bowl of the P. Select that shape and apply a 110pt stroke aligned to the outside of the shape:

    Note the gap between the red stroke and the black counter on the right edge - this is where things would have gone wrong if you'd simply applied a shear to the character. [It's also partially a result of the source character not having a perfectly even stroke width, there is a a little bit of contrast there that we're ignoring for now.]
    Convert this stroke into a new path with Object->Path->Outline Stroke.
    Now construct the stem of the P. I set up some lines to act as guides.

    Using the pen tool, edit the path to form the stem.

    Clear away all the stuff you don't need and you have your character:

    You'll want to edit the corners to round them off, and after doing that you have an outline that can be imported into FontLab (see page 28 in Learn FontLab Fast).
    Last edited by grakkle; 09-25-2014 at 08:47 AM.

  27. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to grakkle For This Useful Post:

  28. #14
    Member grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold grakkle is a splendid one to behold
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    133
    Thanks
    464
    Thanked 818 Times in 125 Posts

    Now for contrast

    Once you're comfortable with the preceeding, it's time to move on to something a bit more powerful.
    First, isolate the counter as before, but this time apply a stroke that's only half the width that you want your final stroke to be:



    As before, select Object->Path->Outline Stroke, but now delete the interior points so you're left with a single path:



    What we're going to do is create a skeleton of the character, and then build it as a stroke around that skeleton. To form the stem of the P, cut the path with the scissors tool and move the points apart at the cut:



    As before, I drew a line to make sure I got the alignment right. Move the points to form the stem and close up the bowl:



    Now create a new calligraphic brush:



    For this example we're creating a character with an axis of 0°, so the horizontal strokes will be thinner than the vertical ones. Obviously this is a part where you can play around a lot. Roundedness varies the amount of contrast in your stroke, and axis varies the angle at which that is applied. You can adjust these so the stroke produces a contrast and axis that matches the roman form. This produces what's known as 'translation contrast', matching the effect of a broad-nibbed pen, rather than the expansion contrast produced by a narrow steel-tipped pen (see http://typophile.com/node/37310 for an exhaustive discussion of this and other topics on type design).



    Apply the stroke and select Object->Path->Outline Stroke again and you have the basis of your character. As you can see you'll need to tidy up the points a lot, and as before you'll have to refine the corners.


  29. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to grakkle For This Useful Post:

  30. #15
    Banned stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold stradivarious is a splendid one to behold
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    905
    Thanks
    532
    Thanked 789 Times in 258 Posts
    Ok men. Thanks so much for you input.
    you send a message in inbox

  31. The Following User Says Thank You to stradivarious For This Useful Post:

+ Reply to Thread

Similar Threads

  1. [REQUEST] Benton Sans Italics (Font Bureau)
    By djhomz in forum Requests
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-21-2014, 07:15 AM
  2. Museo with Italics (filling request)
    By fontsmania in forum Resources
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-01-2013, 03:52 AM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-21-2013, 06:35 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts