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Thread: CTP - Violet, Thermal or Conventional ?

  1. #76
    Donor dejanzl is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post
    Well we use Kodak pre baking liquid.
    ?? I guess that something you just did not understand well.
    From Kodak website:
    1st generation - preheat/postbake - KODAK THERMAL GOLD Digital Plates and KODAK DITP GOLD Thermal Plates (sold in Europe and Asia Pacific) offer high quality and long print runs but require the use of processors, chemistry, and ovens to achieve quality print runs. The conversion to thermal CTP technology allowed the complete elimination of film and film processing, as well as the use of silver-based materials in the plate making process.

    2nd generation - elimination of preheat - No preheat/with postbake plates in the Family of KODAK ELECTRA EXCEL Thermal Plates removed the need for prebaking plates, reducing chemistry and energy needed to produce plates.

    3rd generation - elimination of preheat and postbake - No preheat/no postbake plates such as KODAK ELECTRA XD Thermal Plates and the Family of KODAK SWORD Thermal Plates removed the need for ovens altogether offering significant reduction in energy as well as reducing chemistry and waste. These plates also enabled the regular use of alcohol-replacement founts without the need of postbaking.

    4th generation - elimination of chemistry and processors - Non process plates such as KODAK THERMAL DIRECT and KODAK PF-N Non Process Plates removed the need for processors and chemistry altogether offering a plate solution consuming no additional energy, water, or chemistry without processing waste to dispose of.


    You don't use pre baking liquid, you use simple liquid called offsetgum like we are in our developer, we use P-47 offset gum uni from Cinkarna and that liquid help to protects the plate some time before printing, after printing, for reprint, you must use it again, this is standard procedure!


    And concerning technologies mentioned here they all exist with a reason.
    Completely're right!
    Depending on what kind of business the company deals with and how much, let's say, packaging and label printing where it requires a relatively large circulation and the frequent repetition

    My personal experiences are that Thermal is very stable way of production.
    you claim this because you are directly comparing the same job with two types of plates or just guessing?

    I was in a situation where we have damaged thermal panels in the press and must replace with our uv plates. I must say after all measuring, plate with plate reader and print sheet with i1 pro the differences were not visible or difference is in range of tolerance, not to say that no person who could tell that print is not made with thermal plates​​!


    And in our company it pays off itself pretty well.
    Check this with the Department for procurement production materials.

  2. #77
    Donor duweisoon is on a distinguished road
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    dont flood!

    therma ...is term quality and consistantcy...

    and violet plate is more expensive than therma plate....
    Last edited by super silja; 08-29-2011 at 12:19 PM. Reason: dont flood!

  3. #78
    Donor dejanzl is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by duweisoon View Post
    and violet plate is more expensive than therma plate....
    I can not believe what you just said, perhaps this is your way to collect twenty posts!

  4. #79
    Donor duweisoon is on a distinguished road
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    ?? dont know what im said?? is not true that violet plate is more expensive than therma plate?

    & violet in term of accuracy is worse isnt?? the technician from violet ctp machine told me that violet ctp cant get good accuracy unless u need very care for developer & the violet ctp room environment.

    correct me if im wrong...

  5. #80
    Nemesis
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejanzl View Post
    ?? I guess that something you just did not understand well.
    From Kodak website:
    1st generation - preheat/postbake - KODAK THERMAL GOLD Digital Plates and KODAK DITP GOLD Thermal Plates (sold in Europe and Asia Pacific) offer high quality and long print runs but require the use of processors, chemistry, and ovens to achieve quality print runs. The conversion to thermal CTP technology allowed the complete elimination of film and film processing, as well as the use of silver-based materials in the plate making process.

    2nd generation - elimination of preheat - No preheat/with postbake plates in the Family of KODAK ELECTRA EXCEL Thermal Plates removed the need for prebaking plates, reducing chemistry and energy needed to produce plates.

    3rd generation - elimination of preheat and postbake - No preheat/no postbake plates such as KODAK ELECTRA XD Thermal Plates and the Family of KODAK SWORD Thermal Plates removed the need for ovens altogether offering significant reduction in energy as well as reducing chemistry and waste. These plates also enabled the regular use of alcohol-replacement founts without the need of postbaking.

    4th generation - elimination of chemistry and processors - Non process plates such as KODAK THERMAL DIRECT and KODAK PF-N Non Process Plates removed the need for processors and chemistry altogether offering a plate solution consuming no additional energy, water, or chemistry without processing waste to dispose of.


    You don't use pre baking liquid, you use simple liquid called offsetgum like we are in our developer, we use P-47 offset gum uni from Cinkarna and that liquid help to protects the plate some time before printing, after printing, for reprint, you must use it again, this is standard procedure!


    And concerning technologies mentioned here they all exist with a reason.
    Completely're right!
    Depending on what kind of business the company deals with and how much, let's say, packaging and label printing where it requires a relatively large circulation and the frequent repetition

    My personal experiences are that Thermal is very stable way of production.
    you claim this because you are directly comparing the same job with two types of plates or just guessing?

    I was in a situation where we have damaged thermal panels in the press and must replace with our uv plates. I must say after all measuring, plate with plate reader and print sheet with i1 pro the differences were not visible or difference is in range of tolerance, not to say that no person who could tell that print is not made with thermal plates​​!


    And in our company it pays off itself pretty well.
    Check this with the Department for procurement production materials.
    Concerning pre bake liquid that is what does it says on the label on the can. But yes I know is offset gum as you are calling it. In our developer machine we have direct application of that offset gum and drying after. So we get protected plate directly from the developer machine. Hope that clears your doubt. Besides we use Kodak Capricorn VT plates along with AGFA LT 2, AGFA Thermostar plates and occasionally from Dutch manufacturer GPS.

    Developers we are using in our developer machine are: Kodak Goldstar, GPS developer, and strangely enough developer that we have been testing and proved to be the best and develops almost all different plates we have been developing is CTP 200 or CTP 100 from VELA (Verona Lastre).

    Concerning various CtP technologies I didn't compared any as I didn't guess at all. Just read what I write and do not try to find second meaning of it. If I said that in my experience thermal technology is very stable I meant just that without comparison to other technologies. In no way I have mentioned UV or Violet technologies except that I have said they all exists with reason.

    And also when I said that thermal is paying off itself I really meant that because we have proved that in my company. Mathematically we are in no loss of funds because of it.

    And as you are mentioning Cinkarna from Celje I can conclude you are from Slovenia or any other Ex Yu countries?

  6. #81
    Moderator super silja will become famous soon enough super silja's Avatar
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    thanks to Nemesis and dejanzi

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post
    And also when I said that thermal is paying off itself I really meant that because we have proved that in my company. Mathematically we are in no loss of funds because of it.
    Mathematically customer pays all expenses
    did you know price differences between plates ? did you calculate what amount of money you can save?
    @dejanzi
    you talk about 175 lpi limit? how CTP device know what is screen ruling? you got some error message?
    you talk about HD hybrid raster. do you have limited lpi in (meta?) RIP?

    I know that under some circumstances i had problem with non periodic screening and CTF,
    but never with CTP plate production
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  7. #82
    Donor dejanzl is on a distinguished road
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    @Nemesis
    Mathematically customer pays all expenses
    did you know price differences between plates ? did you calculate what amount of money you can save?

    finally we talk about profit! :)

    @dejanzi
    you talk about 175 lpi limit? how CTP device know what is screen ruling? you got some error message?

    Limit for UV Luscher is 175lpi,
    because the smallest possible displacement of the head containing the diodes, and she floats on a magnetic pillow is 1 / 175 inch

    you talk about HD hybrid raster. do you have limited lpi in (meta?) RIP?
    I know that under some circumstances i had problem with non periodic screening and CTF, but never with CTP plate production

    First i must tell that we try many different rip, harlequin, apogee...before we decided to try metadimension rip.
    Metadimension don't have limit in lpi, metadimension produced tiff-1 and it do not care where you will be light up this tiff.
    We start with version 4.0, 2003, after that 5.0 and 6.22 and now 7.0, all version before 7 have standard screening rules and separately fm, stochastic, only version 7.0 have intersection with am screening and in some raster value fm, this value selected in the range where it appears the biggest difference between UCR and GCR color substitution in printing process, 10-30% am replaces with fm, and 60-80% replaces with fm, you must see to believe :)

    as you mentioned we try fm screening in the press room but we have problem with continuity and repeatability

    how CTP device know what is screen ruling? you got some error message?
    Basically I have answered in previous post but to clarify a little more.

    We light up on Luscher tiff-1 files, we must know what tiff-1 files represent, dot size on Pixel pitch is change on device by changing focal length and focus, minimum point that the device can highlight the corresponding 175 lpi, maximum is 133lpi.

    if you produce tiff-1 file with more lpi, this file is rejected due to an error that is detected as a dimensional problem, tiff file dimension does not fit the boards to which the image is transferred.
    Last edited by super silja; 08-30-2011 at 01:22 AM.

  8. #83
    Moderator super silja will become famous soon enough super silja's Avatar
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    lpi dpi

    @dejanzi

    Limit for UV Luscher is 175lpi,
    because the smallest possible displacement of the head containing the diodes, and she floats on a magnetic pillow is 1 / 175 inch
    i like to make note and to clarify some things
    what you say have nothing with screen ruling. You speak about device resolution.
    In your case resolution is probably 2400 or 2450, or you do security printing. Same device but (only!) with different optics (raster plates) can produce 10 000 dpi.
    It's not a problem with 2400 dpi to produce 200 or more lpi.
    you have only one limit - 10µ minimum dot size

    sometime people have problem with non periodic screening if they chose 10µ dot size.
    FOGRA give advice about that, at least minimum dot size x 2 in your case 20 or 2X2
    if you produce tiff-1 file with more lpi, this file is rejected due to an error that is detected as a dimensional problem, tiff file dimension does not fit the boards to which the image is transferred.
    you have problem with resolution dpi, not with screen ruling lpi, check your rip setup.
    choose 2400/2540 ( depending of your device resolution) and only change screen ruling
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  10. #84
    Donor dejanzl is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by super silja View Post
    @dejanzi


    i like to make note and to clarify some things
    what you say have nothing with screen ruling. You speak about device resolution.
    In your case resolution is probably 2400 or 2450, or you do security printing. Same device but (only!) with different optics (raster plates) can produce 10 000 dpi.
    It's not a problem with 2400 dpi to produce 200 or more lpi.
    you have only one limit - 10µ minimum dot size
    Maybe we are not understood well. Lets make simple.
    Try to expose raster in 20% on resolution 2400 dpi and 150 lpi you will receive 150 dots per inch with specific size who representing 20% raster, lets do it again with 175 lpi !!!, you will receive 175 dots per inch with specific size who representing 20% raster, try with microscope, or magnified lens to counter dots and that is what i'm say, on same resolution but different screen ruling you will receive different number of dots for same raster % that is only possible when dots change size, its mean dots on 175 lpi is smaller then dots on 150 lpi, that is possible to do with focal length and focus.

    Simple, produce tiff-b with 2400dpi and 50lpi, 20% raster, you will receive 50 dots per inch, then try 100lpi you will receive double sized tiff-b with 100 dots per inch!

    as i say when try 2400dpi and 175lpi you will receive certain size where the number of points determined by the selected lpi
    Last edited by super silja; 08-30-2011 at 10:36 AM. Reason: same topic

  11. #85
    Moderator super silja will become famous soon enough super silja's Avatar
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    @dejanzi
    now i understand your point of view.
    some devices like screen have resolution. 1,200 / 2,000 / 2,400 / 2,438 / 2,540 / 4,000
    in that case they change focus.

    In your case focus is always same, because you have device with fixed resolution. You change optics position up and down depending of plate thickness 0.15, 0.3 or 0.4 mm
    but focus is always same - the distance from offset plate is always same
    one pixel dot in your case is always 10µ.
    and ....
    you can use it more than 175 lpi check your setup and send your feedback
    Last edited by super silja; 08-30-2011 at 10:58 PM.
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  13. #86
    Junior Member por119 is on a distinguished road
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    I think Thermal coz conventional plate manufacturer will shut down production line more and more. (as i know kodak will shut down by end of this year)

  14. #87
    Member alliswell is on a distinguished road
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    future is violet ctp

  15. #88
    Junior Member leo1972 is on a distinguished road
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    Termal ctp Kodak only

    My Firm use termal ctp trandsetter 400 +autoloader . It butiful

  16. #89
    Junior Member shiv is on a distinguished road
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    both are good

    prefer external drum for thermal
    and internal drum for violet

  17. #90
    Donor shamant is on a distinguished road shamant's Avatar
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    Heidelberg Suprasetter 105 with all 6! laserhead. thermal ctp of cause)
    Using Plates Fujifilm_BrilliaLH-PCE. 175-200lpi normal results. FM also raver good)

    Process just easy to control if you have SpectroPlate.

    In nearest future wanna buy one more CtP, and my opinion it'll be thermal.

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