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Thread: Xerox DC250 (Olympia) – profiling without success

  1. #16
    Junior Member ZhuJo is on a distinguished road
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    I have found this for greyscale optimization of profile. It's for i1Profiler only, but discussion under post may provide you with more information to suit this for other profiling package:
    http://www.i1upgrades.com/2011/08/how-to-use-the-tc-2502-gray-optimization-chart/

    And this too:
    http://www.russellcottrell.com/photo/optimization/


    Also, in manual for basICColor Print, there is a short paragraph mentioning how to load multiple measurements of different targets to create , merged profile for color optimization in general as well as specific colors (company logos and so on). Basically, this is a narrowed version of averaging multiple measurements of and same target, but with difference – as you are not measuring same target but different s ( for colors like ECI2002 and another, like custom for greyscale), you are getting conversion values for specific colors/shades also in profile.

    Hope this helps

  2. #17
    Junior Member ZhuJo is on a distinguished road
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    Fogra compliance achieved!

    Hello, me again.
    So, after a while I can report that currently we are achieving Fogra certified proofs on Xerox DC250 – without proofing paper, just ordinary, final output offset paper (coated/uncoated 100-300 g).
    Average Delta E: 2.6 (Fogra recommended: 3.0)
    Peak Delta E: 5.34 (Fogra recommended: 6.0)
    Paper White ∆E*ab: 1.01 (1A19) (Fogra recommended: 3.0)
    Primaries Peak ∆E*ab: 2.91 (Fogra recommended: 5.0)
    Primaries Peak ∆H: 1.95 (1A1) (Fogra recommended: 2.5
    CMY-grey - G10-G100 Average ∆H: 1.54

    The proofer works inside the standard tolerances (Ugra/Fogra 2004).

    Proofing software used: BasICColor Catch+BasICColor Print, ES-1000 Rev. D, no UV Cut.
    ECI2002 Random patches used for profiling

    Profile creation settings for BasICColor Print (settings file attached):
    Total ink: 260%
    Black definition – Custom: C=40%, M=60%, Y=60%, K=100%
    Black start: 0 %, Black with: 100 %, GCR (save ink): 34
    Gamut mapping: standard compression with chroma 0%
    Quantifier: 0
    Brightener correction: 50 %

    These settings should work for Xerox DC 242, 250, 252, 260 and others Docucolor laser copiers too.

    If you need the help with the whole process, contact me.

  3. #18
    Junior Member DonMarco is on a distinguished road
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    I have Xerox DC252 and also struggled with color matching. I don't have Efi but Creo RIP. I tried using i1iO and made some ICC profiles and calibration. This helped only a little bit.

    But than I managed to find Xerox technician trained and experienced in colors and how to setup RIP...he downloaded many stuff regarding RIP...this improved a lot. They have some partner login sites where they can download it.

    Than I had to make calibration for every paper I'm using and saved settings in RIP. This helped additionally.

    But when I was still not able to get printed colors as I wanted...we moved solving problem based with hardware...replacing laser for magenta...new transfer belt...new 2nd BTR roller...new fuser....replaced all drums...and now I will start replacing developer units.

    Also I have cleaned all 4 lasers under drums....I have found a lot of tr particles located inside machines on lasers...cleaning lasers improved in quality of different grays.

    I'm almost there where I should be...printing accurate colors as customer wants.

    But problem is to find xerox guy who knows more than just replacing parts. Not every attended training about color accuracy.

    Now I know what it means to have Xerox FSMA contract....at the end..."olmpiya" can cost more than monthly cost without fsma contract...but in the start this is ok...to develop business, market and make some profit for future investments.

  4. #19
    Banned Baklan is on a distinguished road
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    Nope, that wasn't problem. As I have written in my previous post, problem is within Fiery handling of linearization - when printing patches, you need to re-import some older profile (I suggest to export default Fiery output profile from RIP) and set the DMax to latest measured values (which you have obtained during linearization).

  5. #20
    Junior Member DonMarco is on a distinguished road
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    Hi ZhuJo

    Would love to learn and test such profilling as you described.

    Where can I order this ECI2002 Random patches?

    Would you assist in learning how to get such print quality as you described?

    This would be great to make some kind of tutorial as there is very little about color calibration of our Xerox printers. Official Xerox technicians are not capable of making
    advance color calibration and I didn't find any tutorial on internet based for this topic.

    Regards

  6. #21
    Donor bcolour is on a distinguished road
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    Xerox DC250 Colour Profiling

    Having read your thread, I remind myself of similar dramas we had until I found out more information from the EFI forums.
    Firstly with any laser printer which has an integrated or stand alone RIP, you need to calibrate (linearise) the printer at the printer. For example our old Xerox 6550 call it Auto Gradation whereas our new Xerox C560 calls it Calibration. In either case, the calibration adjusts colour at the printer. I have just recently found out that the machine uses a specific paper as its reference. In our case it happens to be Fuji Xerox Colotec+ 100gsm. This is an important piece of information. Now all you have to do is to calibrate to that paper at the machine.
    Now as far as the Fiery RIP is concerned, it also has calibration of paper types. If your RIP included the spectrophotometer, then the job will be quicker. If not, then you can still calibrate to the paper you wish to print on. The Fiery RIP has two things it wants to know about: linearization of paper type and icc profile of the paper type. The RIP has default profiles, ie., linearization and icc profile combined for each paper type which you could use. We have a spectrophotometer and found that Fiery's icc profiles have smooth curves and they have done a far better job than I can. So I just machine calibrate, followed by Fiery calibrate using the spectrophotometer and that's it. What this process does is it calibrates the machine to its inbuilt reference point (in my case the Colotec+ 100gsm) then the Fiery calibrates the icc profiles. My greys are very acceptable as a result. I found that my own icc profiles which I have created aren't that perfect, they have wonky curves which would mean a certain amount of banding showing up in colours. I too have fiddled with the black start and end points with very little success and a lot of time spent. So in the end, my machine gets regularly calibrated, usually at the beginning of any job for a particular paper type.
    Regards
    bcolour

    Quote Originally Posted by ZhuJo View Post
    Hello,
    we own Xerox DC250 digital copier with EFI RIP (Splash I think). We use Command Workstation 5.3 to manage printing jobs and the RIP.

    I also own used i1 Pro/ES-1000 Rev. A with UV Cut. Profiles for display made with this spectro are fine.
    However, I'm not able to create profile for DC250.
    I have found this thread:
    http://www.printroot.com/forum/f13/fiery-rip-how-linearize-profile-external-software-9461/

    I have linearized DC250 with ColorWise tools before profiling.

    Used settings to print patches (IT873) on different kinds of papers, measure them with Basiccolor Catch and created profiles with Basiccolor Print.
    All of the profiles create very muddy colors, totally off. Used optimized settings (black with 40 %, black start 20%, total ink 400 or 260 %), no success. Also tried general Laser printer settings and Profilemaker 5 Docucolor 204 setting, same (somewhat worse) results.

    Simulation/input profile is Fogra27, output is profile I have made. Of course, when printing measurement patches, Colorwise is set to None (so it's using linearization), output linearization settings like Coated 1, Plain, Heavy used for each profile separately.

    What's strange is that I owned ColorMunki Design before and profiles created under same settings in CommandWorkstation were great. However, ColorMunki could not linearize DC250, so I sold it.

    Also tried to use EFI Color Profile Suite in demo mode to print&measure patches under EFI RIP optimized settings from CPS and create ICC in Basiccolor Print – same results.

    i1Diagnostics test shows that i1Pro is working and all tests are successfull.

    Would be VERY thankful to everyone who provides me some more info on what I'm doing wrong. Information about profiling Xerox Docucolors with 3rd party tools are very scarse. Thanks in advance.

  7. #22
    Junior Member esku is on a distinguished road
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    Splash rip does not print direct, It prints through EFI controller so maybe you are doing a double color conversion, for checking try to print through EFI controller. Nowadays, Splash is dead.

  8. #23
    Donor bcolour is on a distinguished road
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    ICC Profiling Pitfalls

    Quote Originally Posted by esku View Post
    Splash rip does not print direct, It prints through EFI controller so maybe you are doing a double color conversion, for checking try to print through EFI controller. Nowadays, Splash is dead.
    I think it's important to remember that the printer and the RIP are two separate devices and they can work against each other. The printer regardless of brand has its own linearisation or calibration process. So the linearisation step is always the first thing you need to do before thinking of creating icc profiles.
    Linearisation is done at the printer control panel and has nothing to do with any RIPs. In my case, Xerox C560 we can linearise for Photocopying and for Printing. The steps involve following the prompts which is essentially printing a swatch sheet, laying the printed result on the glass, add some backing sheets, closing the lid, and then press Start. The end result is just updating the printer's densities for each colour. Out of this exercise you get improved grey balance. What I have found out is that in the case of Xerox, this step has a single reference assumption: whatever the printer scans as colour and densities, it then compares it to colour and densities of a print using Colotec 100gsm. In other words, there is only one reference file regardless of the paper type you are about to use. Now for the RIP.
    The RIP, on the other hand, eg. EFI Fiery, has two bits of information it uses: linearisation data and icc profiles. The file is called an output profile. This output profile is and should be updated regularly. There should be an output profile for the paper type used, eg. plain, gloss, silk, etc. If you want to calibrate your printer, you will first calibrate the printer and then the RIP's output profile. So when you first used your Fiery RIP, you would have noticed that there is already a number of output profiles which you can readily use. However, you can create your own icc profiles (using Fiery Color Profiler), and it will still need to be updated on a regular basis much like the already supplied output profiles. Fiery's output profile curves are perfect and in my experience with using the ES-1000 my icc curves don't look anywhere near as perfect. So I just use the ES-1000 just to update the output profile on a daily basis.

    I think where people are getting confused is that the Fiery supplied output profiles that you see are actually two bits of information: one part comes from Fiery's Calibration tool which you should regularly use to linearise each type of paper you use and the other part comes from an icc profile which gets created once only.

    Here is my workflow I use with an integrated Fiery RIP:
    [1] calibrate (linearise) printer at the printer control panel using Xerox Colotec+ 100gsm stock;
    [2] Start up EFI Workstation and run Calibrate tool. Change the Calibration Set to Plain (if I want to print with Plain paper). Then print a number of Measurement Pages. Then Measure the swatches using the ES-1000 which came with my RIP. I then view the measurement results vs Targets to see if anything strange occurred with the ES-1000 tool. If all the curves are smooth, I Apply and click Done. This step is then repeated for the next category of stock which I will use, eg. gloss art, and silk. However, I only calibrate the printer once but calibrate the output profile for each paper type.

    The end result of the workflow is that I have calibrated the printer at the printer only once but have calibrated the Fiery RIP for each paper type I wish to use. So on any one day, I will have calibrated the printer once and the RIP three times (once each for Plain, gloss, and silk stocks).

    If you ignore calibrating the printer at the printer control panel, then just calibrating the Fiery output profiles will result in major shifts of colour and grey balance because it's the printer which can have big changes over time and the output profiles at the RIP will have a hard time adapting the output profile to the change. For example, if you notice that the grey balance is out and you just calibrated the output profile within Fiery, the profile will only adjust a small amount and perhaps not enough. So the rule is to always calibrate the machine at machine level first and this brings the machine to a neutral state. The output profiles which the Fiery RIP uses can handle small changes and will correct itself when you calibrate the output profiles after calibrating the machine.

    PS.: A note about the viewing of the curves during output profile calibration. I noticed that some of the curves are lower than the target levels. When this occurs, you may want to advise your technician to adjust the machine toner density levels. Then you will have to re-calibrate the machine and then re-calibrate the RIP's output profile again.

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