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Thread: Xerox DC250 (Olympia) – profiling without success

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    Junior Member ZhuJo is on a distinguished road
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    Xerox DC250 (Olympia) – profiling without success

    Hello,
    we own Xerox DC250 digital copier with EFI RIP (Splash I think). We use Command Workstation 5.3 to manage printing jobs and the RIP.

    I also own used i1 Pro/ES-1000 Rev. A with UV Cut. Profiles for display made with this spectro are fine.
    However, I'm not able to create profile for DC250.
    I have found this thread:
    http://www.printroot.com/forum/f13/fiery-rip-how-linearize-profile-external-software-9461/

    I have linearized DC250 with ColorWise tools before profiling.

    Used settings to print patches (IT873) on different kinds of papers, measure them with Basiccolor Catch and created profiles with Basiccolor Print.
    All of the profiles create very muddy colors, totally off. Used optimized settings (black with 40 %, black start 20%, total ink 400 or 260 %), no success. Also tried general Laser printer settings and Profilemaker 5 Docucolor 204 setting, same (somewhat worse) results.

    Simulation/input profile is Fogra27, output is profile I have made. Of course, when printing measurement patches, Colorwise is set to None (so it's using linearization), output linearization settings like Coated 1, Plain, Heavy used for each profile separately.

    What's strange is that I owned ColorMunki Design before and profiles created under same settings in CommandWorkstation were great. However, ColorMunki could not linearize DC250, so I sold it.

    Also tried to use EFI Color Profile Suite in demo mode to print&measure patches under EFI RIP optimized settings from CPS and create ICC in Basiccolor Print – same results.

    i1Diagnostics test shows that i1Pro is working and all tests are successfull.

    Would be VERY thankful to everyone who provides me some more info on what I'm doing wrong. Information about profiling Xerox Docucolors with 3rd party tools are very scarse. Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Banned yarnik is on a distinguished road
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    Colorwise is set to None
    but when calibrating, we did not disable this function

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    Junior Member ZhuJo is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by yarnik View Post
    but when calibrating, we did not disable this function
    It's not „Off“ but „None“, that means it's not using any input profile, therefore, characterization/profiling is not used, just internal linearization/calibration of DC250.

    This is basically same as „In Printer“ setting instead of „ColorSync“ on many regular printers. So, color management is TURNED OFF for profiling, as it should be.

    Even EFI Color Profiler Suite uses same settings – it creates jobs for profiling by directly connecting to their own EFI RIP and setting it accordingly.

    I'm going to test i1Pro on basic RGB printer and try to create profile for it to see, whether it's OK or faulty (I have a strong feeling that lamp is not working on it's full power – it's pretty old, after all).

    Thanks for your reply, anyway. Could you inform me about your process of profiling, if you are not setting Colorwise to None?

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    Junior Member nacito1234 is on a distinguished road
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    Why do you need create ICC profile for DC250. With linearisation only you can get very nice results. I'm afraid about the grey balance after creating icc profile

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    Junior Member ZhuJo is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by nacito1234 View Post
    Why do you need create ICC profile for DC250. With linearisation only you can get very nice results. I'm afraid about the grey balance after creating icc profile
    Sorry, but I don't agree. You are partially right – nice results for digital printing centre for average Joe, but not for companies that DEMAND they marketing materials look +/- same, whether it's load is low (digital printing) or big (press).

    I'm from Slovakia (EU) and we produce materials for companies like Skoda and Kia Motors. As you might expect, they would not accept anything different from what they call „reference materials“ :)

    Anyone else to really try to answer my question? I'm lost :(

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    Donor bcolour is on a distinguished road
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    Calibrating Xerox DC250 with Fiery RIP

    We just bought a Xerox PC560 with a Fiery bustled RIP as well as Fiery Color Profiler.
    I had nothing but confusion with the procedure to create a profile for the paper I was using until I realised that there are two phases to the process.
    The first one is the Xerox machine itself. Xerox has a Calibration procedure on the machine itself outside of the Fiery RIP or Fiery Color Profiler software. You need to Linearise the machine using Xerox Calibration tool on the machine's GUI. The term Calibration is loosely used here as it really is just checking the density level and bringing it to a certain machine standard.
    The second phase has to do with Fiery RIP. In the RIP itself you will see a tool for 'Calibrate'. This again is just a linearisation (density check) check and is on top of the Xerox linearisation because Fiery doesn't control how the printer prints; it just makes sure your file's colours fit into the printer's gamut and toner densities possible.
    This is where the confusion begins. To Calibrate using the Fiery RIP, you print a swatch page, measure the colours using either a ES1000 or just the printer's scanner. At the end of the measuring the densities are saved to an already creating output profile supplied by Fiery. So every time we linearise the printer using the machine's Calibration tool at the machine's GUI, we then Calibrate using Fiery's Calibrate tool which then gets saved to one of the existing output profiles. The confusion is the one that it gets saved to may not make sense to you because you may want to use a cardstock sheet but you have to choose one of the existing profiles without really knowing how it manages colour gamuts.
    Hence Fiery offers Color Profiler software for you to create your own icc profile. Here there are two ways to make the icc profile and this is not intuitive. What we have ended up doing is creating an icc profile using the Optimised version when we use Fiery's Color Profile software. By taking this approach the icc profile you end up with has a linearisation tag as well as an icc colour table in one file. This doesn't really make sense but apparently it is supposed to work.
    Having used this approach, we get a satisfactory result and with the Color Profile software you get a chance to edit any colour you aren't happy with.
    The important part of the workflow is to always linearise the printer at the Xerox machine level before doing anything with creating icc profiles.

  10. #7
    Junior Member ZhuJo is on a distinguished road
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    Thanks for your post bcolour!

    However, I wouldn't be so sure if there is *ANY* difference between liniearisation with ColorWise tool and "Calibrate" button in Command Workstation.
    Both are used for linearization, which I have done – no problem with that, I'm pretty well informed about linearization and what does it mean (after more than 15 years in pre-press I should be )

    There should be NO problem to linearize copier+RIP for each paper type (which you are calling "Profile") and then, with settings in Command Workstation set in ColorWise to "None" (input) and "Media defined" (output) print the patches for creating ICC profile.

    This is really all that Efi ColorProfiler does – it turns off input profile and sets up output to "Media defined" so there is always used appropriate linearization for each media type (Plain, Plain Enhanced, Coated, Coated enh, Heavyweight) – this you can set up under "Media type" popup in "Paper Source" tab of printed job.

    However, in my case, this doesn't work – but it HAS worked when I had ColorMunki.
    I have a strong feeling that whole EFI RIP doesn't work well for linearization when using UV-Cut version of i1Pro. Whole process might have a problem with UV-Cut version, as I also don't use original software for profiles but another one, which probably doesn't take into account UV-Cut version. I have ordered no-filter version of i1Pro, so I'll see.

    However, using MonacoProfiler with „i1Pro UV-Cut“ settings I get much better results – it's not optimal, as there is still too much yellow and colors are undersaturated.

    So I suspect this might be a problem – an UV-Cut version of i1Pro which ColorWise (linearisation) doesn't take into account.
    Fact is, I don't even get remotely close to strong, saturated colors without any ICC profile at all, just with basic linearisation. But, when I load OLD linearisation file (made quite long time ago, so it should be really off), made previously with DTP32 densitometer (not mine), colors are quite good (even without profile).

    So, to sum it up, it looks like problem is not in way I create profiles, but either with bad i1Pro (bad unit? – it's Rev. A after all, but not used much), or because it's UV-Cut version.
    Also, I have no other option than to use standard Xerox or offset papers for linearization and profiling, not papers without optical brighteners – maybe this is a problem?
    Last edited by ZhuJo; 11-10-2012 at 03:06 AM.

  11. #8
    Junior Member nacito1234 is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZhuJo View Post
    Sorry, but I don't agree. You are partially right – nice results for digital printing centre for average Joe, but not for companies that DEMAND they marketing materials look +/- same, whether it's load is low (digital printing) or big (press).

    I'm from Slovakia (EU) and we produce materials for companies like Skoda and Kia Motors. As you might expect, they would not accept anything different from what they call „reference materials“ :)

    Anyone else to really try to answer my question? I'm lost :(
    I'm also from Slovakia :smile

  12. #9
    Junior Member nacito1234 is on a distinguished road
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    Im afraid about grey balance stability after successful creation of profile. Printer like DC250 is an laser printer and only few percent change in f.e magenta can affect grey balance. I profiled big Xeikon printer and it has builded spectrophotometer and intolerances are correcting during measurement between prints. there is grey shifting at minimum level.

    Greatings from Bratislava

  13. #10
    Junior Member ZhuJo is on a distinguished road
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    Greetings! :)

    I would not afraid of grey balance – I have found it perfectly in norm after profiling with ECI2002 target.

    however, I have found out solution to my problem with „washed out“ colors. It turns out there wasn't problem with UV-Cut version of i1Pro I owned.

    Fiery RIP has it's strange behaviour regarding to linearization. One would assume that after you linearize the RIP/printer and set „use media defined profile“ in ColorWise settings, it would print out profiling patches with latest linearization for given type of paper, ie. „Coated 1“.

    Well, it's different – it uses the latest/default output PROFILE with paired linearization for that profile: ie. maximum density of each color is 1.0.

    And that's bad – VERY bad. You need to export any output profile from Fiery (in Device > Sources) tab, reimport in and set the type of paper AND latest measured density for it.

    Then, set this profile as Output (with „None“ set for simulation profile) and print patches with it.

    Thus, problem wasn't with spectro, but with patches printed with low density and thus, with VERY low gamut compared what DC250 is capable of.

    Here is a document (very hardly to find, btw.) which discuss whole process:
    http://w3.efi.com/~/media/Files/EFI/Fiery/CPS/How-To%20Create%20output%20profiles%20for%20your%20Fie ry%20driven%20printer_ReadMe_EN.pdf

    Please take into account that even after calibration (linearization), DC250 prints quite dark. I need to solve this another issue – but rather dark, than totally of.

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  15. #11
    Junior Member ZhuJo is on a distinguished road
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    I would like to add another hint – if you own Mac, use ColorSync Utility to check out profiles for Gamut (you need to have them installed in expected locations – either /Library/ColorSync/Profiles or ~/Library/ColorSync/Profiles)

    I suggest (in case of Fiery RIP) to export factory profile (for given type of paper/linearization set – Coated, Heavy, Plain and others). Put your own profile and exported profile to OS X ColorSync folder and use ColorSync Utility to check out for gamut (under Profiles tab of utility).

    Even greater – right click on 3D gamut of profile and check „Hold for comparison“. Then, select other profile. Now you can see difference between gamut of original and your own profile.

    This way I have found out that my own profile was waaaay below gamut of factory suplied profile. Thus, I knew something was wrong.

  16. #12
    Junior Member nacito1234 is on a distinguished road
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    Did you try to create profile with linearisation from Monaco profiler? Maybe it will create more accurate profile.

  17. #13
    Junior Member ZhuJo is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by nacito1234 View Post
    Did you try to create profile with linearisation from Monaco profiler? Maybe it will create more accurate profile.
    Nope, that wasn't problem. As I have written in my previous post, problem is within Fiery handling of linearization - when printing patches, you need to re-import some older profile (I suggest to export default Fiery output profile from RIP) and set the DMax to latest measured values (which you have obtained during linearization).

    I have created profiles this way by TODAY for each set (Coated, Heavy, Plain) in basiccolor catch (measurement) and basiccolor print (profile creation - total ink 260%, black start 5%) and I have VERY good results. Gamut from Basiccolor Print for given profile is even much better than for profile from monaco profiler - from same measurement data. I'm almost on Fogra certfied print now (Delta E slightly over 3) - of course, if I would have Fogra proofing papers at disposal, I would get there.

    Profiles created with ECI2002 Random patches.

    Looks like I have found solution. Let me tell you - comparing gamut of Fogra 39 and Xerox DC250 I have made I clearly see that DC250 has much better gamut than Fogra 39 used on most offset prints.

    Happy as f*ck :)

  18. #14
    Junior Member nacito1234 is on a distinguished road
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    Interesting investigation. I'm just curious how the grey balance will look after one month without relinearisation.

  19. #15
    Junior Member ZhuJo is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by nacito1234 View Post
    Interesting investigation. I'm just curious how the grey balance will look after one month without relinearisation.
    Well, if you are mainly printing grey only, i would suggest to check "Grey scale" in Colorwise settings and linearize every day.
    If printing mixed sources (Cmyk and B&W) on one sheet, having b&w images converted to Lab without a and b channels may also help.

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