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Thread: "verifying" the gamut

  1. #1
    Donor T. Schruda is on a distinguished road
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    "verifying" the gamut

    i built an RGB profile with profile maker for a matte paper.

    and i built a profile for the same paper with a RIP.

    now i would like to see if i gain some gamut with the RIP..

    i tried to compare the profiles but i dont think this really makes sense as one is an RGB profile and the other is 7color.. and has a lin and different settings?

    i have a HUE test picture that includes patches with RGB 255/0/0.. 0/255/0 and so on. in proPHOTO..

    should this picture bring the extreme possible colors if i print it with those profiles and perceptual rendering? or absolut?

  2. #2
    Bob12345
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    Quote Originally Posted by T. Schruda View Post
    i built an RGB profile with profile maker for a matte paper.

    and i built a profile for the same paper with a RIP.

    now i would like to see if i gain some gamut with the RIP..

    i tried to compare the profiles but i dont think this really makes sense as one is an RGB profile and the other is 7color.. and has a lin and different settings?

    i have a HUE test picture that includes patches with RGB 255/0/0.. 0/255/0 and so on. in proPHOTO..

    should this picture bring the extreme possible colors if i print it with those profiles and perceptual rendering? or absolut?
    First of all, if any colors are actually out-of-gamut (that is, not reproducible with the ink/paper/printer combination you are using) you will probably get a more aesthetically pleasing result with perceptual rendering; absolute rendering may 'squash' the out-of-gamut colors too much so you lose gradations/differences in shade/hue. But it depends on the nature of your source material - if everything's in-gamut and you want the most accurate colors, use absolute rendering.

    Pro Photo is a large gamut, but that doesn't necessarily mean all your colors will 'fit' into it. But it's still probably the best real-world choice for wide gamut source material.

    To compare profile gamuts, try GamutWorks - included with Monaco Profiler (see my post here: http://www.printroot.com/forum/f13/monaco-profiler-platinum-4-8-%5Bportable%5D-2798/

    For comparing profiles (and tons of other things, including device-link profiles) you can also try ColorThink Pro (see my post here: http://www.printroot.com/forum/f21/colorthink-pro-3-0-3-final-%5Bportable%5D-6071/

    There's also a very good e-book (pdf) somewhere on this forum, about ICC profiles.

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  4. #3
    Donor T. Schruda is on a distinguished road
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    thanx bob..

    i have all those tools and thats not what i actually mean. and i cant compare a 7 color profile of a RIP to an rgb profile with gamut works as far as i know..

    i want to SEE it on my material.. i know what the rendering intends do. theoratically. but here its all about practical view!

  5. #4
    Junior Member Wratten is on a distinguished road
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    There is a website called iccview.de with 3D gamut mapping for reference as well as comparison. although is not very informative, the perceptual comparison is quite obvious.

  6. #5
    Donor T. Schruda is on a distinguished road
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    aha.. of course i know that site.
    again.. i am lookin for a method to see the difference in my profiles on my actual paper!

    i want to see how much more colors i get if i go through the hassle of building a 7channel profile for RIP.. thats the reason

  7. #6
    Bob12345
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    Quote Originally Posted by T. Schruda View Post
    aha.. of course i know that site.
    again.. i am lookin for a method to see the difference in my profiles on my actual paper!

    i want to see how much more colors i get if i go through the hassle of building a 7channel profile for RIP.. thats the reason
    Unless I'm missing something then, the only way to see what you want to see is by making prints and comparing them visually.

  8. #7
    Teuflutch
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    You can use Fiery profil inspector in Color profiler Suite.


  9. #8
    Donor T. Schruda is on a distinguished road
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    exactly bob.. and i just want to make sure if my "workflow" or setup for this is right.

    printing patches with extreme values in proPHOTO like 255/0/0 and 0/255/0 and so on should all be out of my paper profiles gamut, right?

    so if i use perc rendering will i get the "closest farthest out" red to that of proPhoto?

  10. #9
    Bob12345
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    Quote Originally Posted by T. Schruda View Post
    exactly bob.. and i just want to make sure if my "workflow" or setup for this is right.

    printing patches with extreme values in proPHOTO like 255/0/0 and 0/255/0 and so on should all be out of my paper profiles gamut, right?

    so if i use perc rendering will i get the "closest farthest out" red to that of proPhoto?
    Perceptual rendering changes in-gamut color values as well as out-of-gamut, the idea being to emphasize the 'difference' between close shades, so to "get the "closest farthest out" red to that of proPhoto" you need to use absolute rendering, which will only change values for out-of-gamut colors.

  11. #10
    Donor T. Schruda is on a distinguished road
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    thats what i thought, too... but when i use preflight in onyx and check the differnt renderings i got totally unsaturated colors with absolut rendering.

    the yellow patch f.e. 255/255/0... gets 62% yellow in absolute rendering. nothing more.

    in perceptual it gets 98% y and 0,8% green.. and looks a lot more like the one i see in PS on my screen??

    so to me it looks like the absolute rendering doesnt do the right thing to out of gamut colors in printing them as far as it goes?

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  13. #11
    Bob12345
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    Quote Originally Posted by T. Schruda View Post
    thats what i thought, too... but when i use preflight in onyx and check the differnt renderings i got totally unsaturated colors with absolut rendering.

    the yellow patch f.e. 255/255/0... gets 62% yellow in absolute rendering. nothing more.

    in perceptual it gets 98% y and 0,8% green.. and looks a lot more like the one i see in PS on my screen??

    so to me it looks like the absolute rendering doesnt do the right thing to out of gamut colors in printing them as far as it goes?
    That's weird!

    BTW, are you using soft-proofing in PS?

    Have you tried printing with no profile at all? That way you will be putting pure ink colors on paper from your 'max-out' patches, so guaranteed 100% saturation!

    How are you obtaining those saturation figures (62% yellow, etc.)?

    Definitely seems like something's wrong with your setup. Think we need a full and detailed description of your setup / workflow / aims.

  14. #12
    Donor T. Schruda is on a distinguished road
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    thats what im saying. its weird ;-)

    im doing this in onyx f.e... the preflight option shows me which inks it puts down with the different rendering intends.. and on screen i see the softproof.

    so there is no real workflow acutally.

    i built a profile with onyx that looks good in colorhink. perfect graybalance.. nice gamut.. a little small in the light yellow and green.. guess i limited yellow too much. but. not the point

    then i open the hue target with the patches wich comes in proPhoto. use the internal profile.. and rendering intent abs or percept. and see on screen the named differences.

    not sure if i could use this profile for softproofing in PS as it is 7 channel

    printing with no profile??.. the goal is, to determan which profile has more gamut: RGB oder RIP.. so .. guess that answers the question ;-)

  15. #13
    Moderator super silja will become famous soon enough super silja's Avatar
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    why absolut color rendering intent?

    With absolut color rendering intent you simulate paper white of input color profile, for proof is mandatory, as i understand you make fine arts prints,
    in this case you can chose relativ colorimetric or perceptual color rendering intent.
    there is no need for absolute.

    i don't have experience with this, but you can order ugra/fogra cielab wedge
    Code:
    Only the registered members can see the download links/content. pleaseĀ Register to gain full access.
    or made by yourself similar control strip

    i guess if you turn soft proofing in onyx and your rgb output device is sRGB, everything is reduced to sRGB.
    if you have chance to connect any wide gamut monitor please inform us if something is changed
    +-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+
    |p|o|w|e|r| |t|o| |b|e| |y|o|u|r| |b|e|s|t|
    +-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+

  16. #14
    Donor T. Schruda is on a distinguished road
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    no that is not the point.
    and i dont think my monitor has anything to do with the printing profiles.. and i do have an eizo aRGB screen.

  17. #15
    Moderator super silja will become famous soon enough super silja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T. Schruda View Post
    no that is not the point.
    and i dont think my monitor has anything to do with the printing profiles.. and i do have an eizo aRGB screen.
    during soft proofing proces color conversion proces is
    input->lab->output->lab>working rgb->lab->monitor rgb

    according eizo, is it wide gamut and calibrated?
    +-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+
    |p|o|w|e|r| |t|o| |b|e| |y|o|u|r| |b|e|s|t|
    +-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+

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