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Thread: Offset printing color problem

  1. #16
    Banned smilem is on a distinguished road
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    PERIOD!? Have you never heard of a spectrophotometer? They are able to produce density measurements with zero need for a densitometer. Please explain why one would use a densitometer when a spectro can provide the same measurements and SO much more as well.
    Densitometers have these polarising filters but specros like i1Pro don't have polarising filters !. Some software can simulate a filter but nothing comes close to real filters.

    Older spectros like spectrolino do have all kinds of filters (UV, polarisong etc.) but by 2012 they will no longer be accepted for re-certification by x-rite. That's right X-rite is badd ass company if you ask me :(

  2. #17
    Junior Member TheMacMeKanik is on a distinguished road
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    Okay, I don't need all this flaming.

    It was IMHO.. It's been awhile since I had to actually worked on a color file for a print company. As for densitometer pardon my french but it had to do with a previous film output printing CO. that had two film output devices and the chemicals were off so each page of the book was light, dark light dark okay!? this was awhile ago! You know I understand all about the new color correction technology... As I said before look at colorclarity.com . I was just at this company with 3 Heidelbergs and a Komori or 2.
    I was there just to hack and program the PCMCIA Proprietary card. I know the colorguys site isn't cutting edge but the technology is. and he's probably doing that so nobody will steal his idea and invention. I was wrong about Trinitron but in the SGI days and JAPANs' VERSION of HDTV!.. me and my friends went to CES and coming home two of my friends said, "Dude! did you see those cool fish in those Sony Fish tanks?!" RETARDED! they were 3 HD Trinitrons stacked upon each other you Dork! He could not tell the difference. My experience is based on that. I have yet to see someone say that about any Plasma or LCD display. Nuff said! Yeah! yeah! yeah! I agree about the new color technology. They had to come up with it because they still do not produce as many colors as a Sony HD Trinitron Tube! I admit I have a LCD 240hz 47" TV. and I think it's the tit and also got rid of all of my trinitrons in the house due to, non HD capability, and too much on the electrical bill. But The Sony HD Trinitron is still the easiest to match colors with, WITHOUT 10 million dollars worth of color correction 3rd party crap. Monitor sticking , output scanning etc. etc. etc... You can pretty much do the 1.8 gamma and eye it! That was the POINT PERIOD!~!!!!
    Last edited by TheMacMeKanik; 10-09-2011 at 06:19 AM.

  3. #18
    Junior Member TheMacMeKanik is on a distinguished road
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    Yeah densitometers suck!

    But with OLD companies without direct to plate these days, Densitometers save your ass in film wastage, chemical wastage, etc. etc etc... Most of my clients are all direct to plate or DIRECT TO PRINT! XEROX! and KYOCERA MITA! no more plates no more any kind of meters! The color proof, is the damn print job! No screening no film no plates no B.S.! perfect colors all the way through! Done Deal.

  4. #19
    Banned smilem is on a distinguished road
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    I too worked with my SONY G400 trinitron, until it died now I use some LG FLATRON monitor. I hate LCD too. They are expensive and the latency is killing me.

    I mean if there super color good monitors like HP DreamColor LP2480zx why the bad latency??? For such a price I expect no latency !

    There should have been a way to trow away all LCDS called SONY FED field emission display "http://techcrunch.com/2009/03/31/fed-sony-calls-it-quits-basically-burying-the-technology-as-a-whole/"

    Now I hate SONY too :) They killed the technology. I will use CRT as long as there is a viable alternative, and an alternative with 0.20 pixel size not like "modern" LCD 0.29 nonsense.

    The only alternative if you have allot of money is to buy MEDICAL LCD display, take a look at the prices of those, you will still have latency problem but all else will be unrivaled by today's graphics standards.

  5. #20
    Member PanozJani is on a distinguished road
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    OMG. A moderator should delete this thread before these posts are read by young prepress/press operators...

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to PanozJani For This Useful Post:

  7. #21
    aaron125
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilem View Post
    Densitometers have these polarising filters but specros like i1Pro don't have polarising filters !. Some software can simulate a filter but nothing comes close to real filters.

    Older spectros like spectrolino do have all kinds of filters (UV, polarisong etc.) but by 2012 they will no longer be accepted for re-certification by x-rite. That's right X-rite is badd ass company if you ask me :(
    There is a very good reason why polarisers are rarely used today anywhere much outside of europe. They simply aren't needed. They are only of much use when a sheet has to be pulled from a press with still wet, shiny ink. What photographer or fine art printer using an inkjet printer has to deal with rubbish like that??!! Polarisers are nothing special, certainly nothing to get all worked up about. If you really want them, Barbieri has been supplying spectros with polarisers for years and stilll do in their current lineup.

    You really need to get with today's technology, you're statements are SO out of date as to be irrelevant. CRT still in use??!!??!! They were never all that good and have been surpassed by LCD technology in every way possible. I have never had any issues with latency on my Eizo CG242W, either when gaming and playing FPS, which require low latency or when watching movies. No problems whatsoever. And the colour accuracy, uniformity, gamut, vibrancy, sharpness are all several generations better than ANYTHING any CRT of any technology could ever even hope to get near.

    And you know who makes the absolute best medical monitors on the planet, right? Give you a hint... starts with an E, ends with an O and has IZ in the middle.

  8. #22
    Junior Member TheMacMeKanik is on a distinguished road
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    Okay what who and where are we talking about?

    How many print companies do you work for now? Are they using Screen Trueflow? Creo? Mom and Pops stores or full blown Corporate Print companies.. For instance I know that Miller presses are so retro because you need to program them with floppy drives, Like you are going to put an Eizo color correction system on that!? Albeit you could, but they, "The Client.) would not be able to afford it! Yeah multi-million dollar corp printing co. can have Eizos' and all, Prinergy etc. etc. But when you need to cater to everybody across the board. You need to be flexible and match their budget. Yeah Creos, Screens' Trueflow etc. etc. Direct to plate. Blah blah blah! It's IMHO! get it! Best solution for the client! I'm not working for Disney, or a Fortune 500 CORP. Printing CO! I do work with some Vegas Print CO.s' that use UV coating and all that other fancy stuff and yeah! they use Eizos'! Geez! such Narrow minded tight waded opinionated ness!
    I really don't care, just trying to give people an option for the best bang for the buck! Yeah EIZO $5,200.00 + Tax. Sony 32" FD Trinitron. UNDER $300.00! Umm yeah with my extra $4900.00 I can achieve any kind of color correction and whatever else I may need.... Any monitor can be the best! Just throw money at it! And keep throwing money at it until you're happy!



    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125 View Post
    There is a very good reason why polarisers are rarely used today anywhere much outside of europe. They simply aren't needed. They are only of much use when a sheet has to be pulled from a press with still wet, shiny ink. What photographer or fine art printer using an inkjet printer has to deal with rubbish like that??!! Polarisers are nothing special, certainly nothing to get all worked up about. If you really want them, Barbieri has been supplying spectros with polarisers for years and stilll do in their current lineup.

    You really need to get with today's technology, you're statements are SO out of date as to be irrelevant. CRT still in use??!!??!! They were never all that good and have been surpassed by LCD technology in every way possible. I have never had any issues with latency on my Eizo CG242W, either when gaming and playing FPS, which require low latency or when watching movies. No problems whatsoever. And the colour accuracy, uniformity, gamut, vibrancy, sharpness are all several generations better than ANYTHING any CRT of any technology could ever even hope to get near.

    And you know who makes the absolute best medical monitors on the planet, right? Give you a hint... starts with an E, ends with an O and has IZ in the middle.

  9. #23
    aaron125
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilem View Post
    I mean if there super color good monitors like HP DreamColor LP2480zx why the bad latency??? For such a price I expect no latency !
    You must be joking, right? An HP screen, being "super color good monitor"?? Surely you jest. Regarding latency, how can you possibly ask for low latency if you are at the same time asking for the highest quality color matching and largest gamut? Would you ask for a Ferarri or perhaps a Zonda and then say, "but I can't fit 4 adults in comfort in this car, where are the back seats and soft, cushy suspension!!??"

    It is exactly the same with screens, you want low latency, you have to give a little in other areas, same as if you wanted utmost accuracy for colour matching or soft proofing, etc.

    But seriously, you actually thought HP made something half decent? Maybe one day...


    Quote Originally Posted by TheMacMeKanik View Post
    How many print companies do you work for now? Are they using Screen Trueflow? Creo? Mom and Pops stores or full blown Corporate Print companies.. For instance I know that Miller presses are so retro because you need to program them with floppy drives, Like you are going to put an Eizo color correction system on that!? Albeit you could, but they, "The Client.) would not be able to afford it! Yeah multi-million dollar corp printing co. can have Eizos' and all, Prinergy etc. etc. But when you need to cater to everybody across the board. You need to be flexible and match their budget. Yeah Creos, Screens' Trueflow etc. etc. Direct to plate. Blah blah blah! It's IMHO! get it! Best solution for the client! I'm not working for Disney, or a Fortune 500 CORP. Printing CO! I do work with some Vegas Print CO.s' that use UV coating and all that other fancy stuff and yeah! they use Eizos'! Geez! such Narrow minded tight waded opinionated ness!
    I really don't care, just trying to give people an option for the best bang for the buck! Yeah EIZO $5,200.00 + Tax. Sony 32" FD Trinitron. UNDER $300.00! Umm yeah with my extra $4900.00 I can achieve any kind of color correction and whatever else I may need.... Any monitor can be the best! Just throw money at it! And keep throwing money at it until you're happy!
    Please show where I ever mentioned anything about any clients affording anything decent concerning colour managament or colour matching accuracy? Did I ever say anything about "such and such is the best - ONLY if you are on a budget that just manages to pay for 3 rice crackers a day and even then they have to be cut in half". C'mon man, be realistic. We're talking about the real world, people who actually care about colour accuracy, not some client who cares about... oh, perhaps... the BOTTOM DOLLAR? What would they want to spend thousands of dollars on 1 single screen and only the screenm no PC, cooktop or big screen LCD TV??

    Don't know where you got the impression I work for any print companies other than my own - which isn't really a company at all, it's just me. I've not spent anywhere near the $5000 you suggest is needed, to be spending that much on a screen, you'd want to be the next Ansel Adams or the current John Paul Caponigro. Even he doesn't spend anywhere near that much on his screen. Nor does Vincent Versace or numerous other incredibly talented and many would say among the world's best ever at what they do.

    Maybe a touch of reality is needed for your very own "Narrow minded tight waded opinionated ness!". Some of your own medicine perhaps would make you better?

    You make me laugh!

  10. #24
    Junior Member TheMacMeKanik is on a distinguished road
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    Yup you're right! =o)

    You are totally right, you work for yourself. That speaks for itself. Have you been doing this for over 27 plus years? and come up through the technology ranks? Maybe you have, and I'm just an Ignoramus! I understand that technology moves at a generation every 3 months! I guess I just need to upgrade my clients list? Look I respect your opinion, I've already hacked the Heidelberg printing color curves with the OmniDrive usb 1.0 or 2.0. If you have anything to contribute regarding Miller presses having to be programmed with a floppy drive and digital to analog system. Then please post a reply... Otherwise You right okay? I'm just here to get some help and give some help. I can care less about whose got the bigger schwinger! I'm here for productivity and gave my own OPINION. NOT THE DAMN BIBLE! so can we all get back to what this site is about? Thanks a Bunch! =o)
    TheMacMeKanik

  11. #25
    Donor colorinlab is on a distinguished road
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    The easy way is contracting a ColorCalibration service. Contact a Color Expert, he'll create the ICCs for you and he'll explain you in your house how to use them. Even if you pay him for it, he'll explain you how to create them by yourselfe. It's mutch mutch faster that trying to lern by yourself.

  12. Your ad here

  13. #26
    Junior Member TheMacMeKanik is on a distinguished road
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    Ergo: mentioned by me before, I think in other posts.

    One of less than 50 Color Specialists in the U.S. that consults Adobe, Heidelberg, etc etc.. because I don't wan't another email that accuses me of trolling... I've more work than I need right now. But if you are in the Southern CA area, and need critical color calibration just a suggestion. Not an advetisement. I remember how hard it was to find an Adobe or Pantone certified matching Technician for an EPSON wide format proofer to match a 4 or 6 color Heidelberg press. I am just trying to help and as you can see I have never mentioned any print companies that I am working for. Only the press machines which almost everyone uses as the industry standard. If any of you guys know about the U.V. coating coating process, Please enlighten me. Thanks for putting up with this extended diatribe. And below he is his own Co.K? I don't make a penny! But at least all of you are referred to the best in the industry. Take care and Good luck.
    Link is below and you call him directly if you want. He's a real nice guy and probably will answer most of your color matching questions for free.

    Glenn Andrews <[email protected]>

    Best Regards,
    (TheMacMeKanik) =o)

  14. #27
    Donor paulito is on a distinguished road
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    First things first

    What I would suggest is to first outsource a press proof from a legit company and see if your press can achieve the color during its run.

    Better to check and correct the stuff that you have right now first (like your machine) rather than immediately investing on something new (monitor, calibration, what not) when the problem might be with your press to begin with.

    Step by step buddy.

  15. #28
    Junior Member TheMacMeKanik is on a distinguished road
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    Ummm. Yeah...

    That's what the Color guy does. He troubleshoots everything! All of your Presses 4-6-8 color even, Film or, Direct to Plate or even direct to print on Xeroxes or Kyocera Mita machines, etc. Your software color matching Pantone, SWOP coated U.V coated Metallics, Sublimation etc., Photoshop Quark, Acrobat PDF workflows, and your Hardware settings, Epson Proofers, Videocard gamma matching settings, LCD or HD CRT print matching etc. etc. etc. Your rasterizing server output software: Screen Trueflow, CREO, Prinergy, etc. That is why there are so very few of them. Because they need to know almost everything across the board! If it was that easy, I could do it. Geez!, He oversees color matching for a Company that does most of the Disney movie poster printing process. And much more. He knows COLOR Printing Processes on both MACs or PCs. That's why there are only around 50 of them in the U.S.A! Just like how there are only about the same number of Cisco Top engineers that set up FIber Optic Frame backbones around the whole country for like Universities, and the Library of Congress! People like that are very rare, and go to school their whole lifetime to keep on the cutting edge! And yet he's a really nice guy accessible and pretty reasonable. You need to see the COMPLETE PACKAGE! and make EVERYTHING OPTIMAL! Everything else is a trade off, and with every print job, you push down here and some other problem pops up there. Yeah, try color matching a COLOR fingernail polish catalog where the client wants every single color to be SPOT ON! Match this color and the other color goes off. Try to fix and match that one and all the colors shift! Deal with it then your way. Good luck!
    Last edited by TheMacMeKanik; 11-03-2011 at 03:24 AM.

  16. #29
    Junior Member toughthrone is on a distinguished road
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    your best bet is to hire someone to troubleshoot your entire print process. this is a very complicated situation, the problem can start from file creation to the chemicals used in printing process!

  17. #30
    Junior Member TheMacMeKanik is on a distinguished road
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    Yes, this is what I was trying to suggest.

    Quote Originally Posted by toughthrone View Post
    your best bet is to hire someone to troubleshoot your entire print process. this is a very complicated situation, the problem can start from file creation to the chemicals used in printing process!
    Yes, this is what I was trying to suggest. with my post. If on "OLD" systems using chemicals for processing that, of course, wears out or leeches out, due to the film processing factor. What I'm talking about is the "FILMLESS." direct to plate process! and beyond that now is the, "DIRECT TO PRINT PROCESS!!" There is almost no more film processing. Especially, let's say you have a phonebook to publish, You use TWO computers to output film to two different film output devices. Depending on the chemicals and the usage or depletion of said chemicals. One page is going to be lighter and the next page is going to be darker due to Chemical depletion, temperature etc.... Ergo: Direct to plate solves that problem period! And direct to print makes it PERFECT!. The only thing that direct to plate can not excel on is: exotic UV coated or other kinds of specialty papers, or metallic inks.

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