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Thread: fine art printing

  1. #1
    Junior Member tremor is on a distinguished road
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    fine art printing

    +1
    Forget EFI for printing fine art... much better IMHO to go with Qimage (allows nesting and has great upsampling)

  2. #2
    Banned servitz is on a distinguished road
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    Are you sure ??!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by tremor View Post
    +1
    Forget EFI for printing fine art... much better IMHO to go with Qimage (allows nesting and has great upsampling)
    ARE YOU SURE ??!!!

  3. #3
    Donor T. Schruda is on a distinguished road
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    i agree..! so positiv!.. the print drivers these days have advanced so much that it is hard, if possible.. to achieve better quality through a rip.

    perfect graybalance with gray inks in print driver without black generation/compensation!
    light inks perfectly set it.. dot size.. etc

  4. #4
    Moderator super silja will become famous soon enough super silja's Avatar
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    measurement or manual adjustment

    it's very hard to find proper ink limit and to make linearization without rip.
    it's not impossible, but it's time consuming process and without chance to repeat controlled adjustment.
    if you do adjustment, i can't name this calibration, for yourself it's ok.
    but there is no objective evaluation of finished process.
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  5. #5
    PRC Member lessbones is on a distinguished road
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    my best results w EFI for fine art printing have been achieved by using the RGB profile connector to import a profile I made with ProfileMaker, then just using the EFI program to do auto-layout-- much quicker than printing out of photoshop, etc. and a much better profile than can be made using EFI's internal color mgmt

  6. #6
    Junior Member tremor is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by super silja View Post
    it's very hard to find proper ink limit and to make linearization without rip.
    it's not impossible, but it's time consuming process and without chance to repeat controlled adjustment.
    if you do adjustment, i can't name this calibration, for yourself it's ok.
    but there is no objective evaluation of finished process.
    True though with the HP z3200 it's not much of an issue because it does do color calibration on a paper by paper basis.
    On our epson 11880 I use colorbase to at least have the controlled repeatibility.

    But what I meant was that althought I use EFI for proofs and production printing, I was never satisfied with the results for fine art printing and qimage has all the features and quality I need.

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    Banned maeiwill is on a distinguished road
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    thanks its make great results

  8. #8
    Junior Member sakharov is on a distinguished road
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    Looks like FineArt print in most cases made on Epson Pro printers.
    It is possible make good enough linearization by free Epson ColorBase.
    Again, we do not make Proof, we make FineArt Print.
    So, we have good linearized printer - we can profile it or use profiles from Epson or other paper maker (Hahnemuhle, etc). This profiles are really good.
    Even if we like to "tune" printer a little, ink +10% for glossy and baryta papers add some deeper blacks and more color gamut.
    In this case custom profile should be created.
    Do not see any reason to use something like Efi for FineArt print.

  9. #9
    Donor T. Schruda is on a distinguished road
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    well!: i just spent TWO hole days in getting the MAX out of a canvas.. printing around 4 meters of the 44" roll with profiles.. trying different ink limits, levels and black seperations.. i even got a 10% larger gamut ..

    and the client looked at the prints... and likes the RGB profile best which was done with monaco in half an hour..

    hahaha- so. talk about you need a RIP!

  10. #10
    Bob12345
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    Quote Originally Posted by T. Schruda View Post
    well!: i just spent TWO hole days in getting the MAX out of a canvas.. printing around 4 meters of the 44" roll with profiles.. trying different ink limits, levels and black seperations.. i even got a 10% larger gamut ..

    and the client looked at the prints... and likes the RGB profile best which was done with monaco in half an hour..

    hahaha- so. talk about you need a RIP!
    That's pretty funny actually!

    Just out of curiosity, which result did *you* prefer (the Monaco or the Maxed-out 2-day one)?

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  12. #11
    Donor ivo1234 will become famous soon enough ivo1234 will become famous soon enough
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    About Fine Art print - the truth is that print driver gives a perfect result.
    The problem with the printers EPSON, there is a driver limitation in the size of print, and that's why you have to print in RIP.
    The original RGB profiles are perfect, especially in Hahnemuehle.
    I have tried to make a CMYK profile for EPSON using Onyx on media of Hahnemuehle and compared the result with the original profile. My profile was dramatically worse than the original. So i think working with the original profiles will give the best result.
    Another question is that we do not use original media only (i.e. unnamed media from china :))

  13. #12
    Moderator super silja will become famous soon enough super silja's Avatar
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    fine art print looking good

    Objective judgment is by measurement
    or you have subjective impression

    for proofing market:
    proofs in tolerances are ok and proof is better if dE figures are as low as possible.

    it would be nice if we define criteria for fine art printing
    i would say, for me criteria is same as for proof.

    Deep Black
    You make shot of sunset behind island in background. It would be nice if you can make differences on the beach, trees, people, boats. I don't need more black ink

    for proofing CIE L*a*b* value of Black=16,0,0. Deepest black for rich black is CIE L*a*b*=9,0,2
    For EFI SM 9100 Proof paper on epson 9900 (my measurement with ink limiting , maybe somebody can achieve better result) CIE L*a*b*=5,1,2
    i ask my self how deep black you need? can you visually make differences between CIE L*=5 and CIE L*=4?, did you measure your fine art print? what is your deepest black?

    from other sources i found ( i don't claim its true)
    What is the deepest black I can expect with Photo Black (PK) papers?

    In Color mode, I have measured L* = 4.0 (d-max = 2.35) on Ilford Smooth Pearl. In ABW mode, I have measured L* = 2.9 (d-max = 2.49) on the same paper. This is getting close to the performance of dye-based inks -- impressive! It may be possible to get deeper blacks on other papers or with different driver settings.
    What is the deepest black I can expect with Matte Black (MK) papers?

    In Color mode, I have measured L* = 16.0 (d-max = 1.68) on Epson Velvet Fine Art paper. In ABW mode, I have measured L* = 13.8 (d-max = 1.77) on the same paper. It may be possible to get deeper blacks on other papers or with different driver settings.

    Gradation reproduction
    (just for illustration i use dot value in %)
    If you have cyan 80%, and make camera shot, what you expect in digital file
    75%, 80% or 85% of cyan. i expect 80%
    for artistic reason if you adjust digital file and you increase/decrease value to 75% or 85% what you expect on your printer?
    you decrease to 75% and printer increase to 80% or 85%! it's nonsense.

    Smooth vignette
    For me, this is critical point. When you make proofs there is no numeric critera. When you send proof to Fogra to certification there is optional test. (I don't know how they measure vignette).
    This is very subjective test and probably there is a space for speculation.
    I agree that smooth vignette is important for fine art but not more than for a proof.

    Color Gamut
    Old generation of printer driver process 8 bit images in sRGB colorspace
    some vendors (Canon for example) bypass standard printer driver with Photoshop plug-in export filter
    http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/support/consumer/printers_multifunction/imageprograf_series/imageprograf_ipf5000#Features

    This application was designed to enable direct printing of 16 -bit RGB images directly from Adobe® Photoshop 6, 7, CS and CS2. This plug-in is a true export module that bypasses the print driver on Windows and Macintosh computers. The module was designed to be an integral part of a photographer's 16-bit workflow without compromising image quality. The Plug-in facilitates the printing of 16-bit images by processing the data outside the conventional driver and sending the data directly from Photoshop to the printer, dramatically increasing gradations and as a result, overall image quality. The print history function enables the user to apply past color, profile and print settings to future jobs. The module allows for improved efficiency in color adjustment tasks and high-definition prints for Photoshop users.
    epson
    For the Epson 3800, the print quality differences between printing directly from an 8-bit image versus a 16-bit image are negligible. The Epson 3800 driver processes only 8-bit image data and hence does not make use of the full 16-bit image data. A full 16-bit driver could offer significantly more halftone steps than an 8-bit driver, leading to smoother color gradations and tonal transitions.
    Big problem is because vendor only support own media.
    On epson printer you have presset for Epson media, on Canon printers - only Canon media ans so one. Thanks to that you can't adjust ink limit and to achieve best possible color gamut (also you have problem with gradation and vignette because of that).
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  14. #13
    Donor T. Schruda is on a distinguished road
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    @bob

    yeah. i thought it was funny, too.. and as you continue to ask.. informative for others.

    but i got an infraction from silja for it. so i will not continue this discussion because it is against the forum rules.

  15. #14
    Junior Member butchershop is on a distinguished road
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    yep for sure

  16. #15
    Donor T. Schruda is on a distinguished road
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    back to the topic..

    @bob... after talking the prints over we actually decided to use the onyx profile. it was a little cooler in the orange and yellows but had more vibrant colors blue and red and specially tuquoise that the client needed. so i could just manually rase Y a little for the prints and he was super happy!


    to the above from silja..

    "Objective judgment is by measurement
    or you have subjective impression"

    in my opinion.. this is exactly the difference between a proof and a fineart print!.. the proof!! needs to be objective.. ART as the name says.. is subjective and free from most rules.. a small gamut with muddy grays on a handmade paper can be what you are lookin for.. or the deepest black without any details can be the artists impression!

    i get an L ab of 2.8 on a semi proofing paper with hp inks.

    the 16bit processing in my eyes is just a marketing gig of canon..

    i doubt one can see the difference with a perfectly calibratet printer and profile.

    hp supports that, too to an extend.. i can send 16bit data to the printer so it will internally cut it down..

    it seems that there are great differences in the printer drivers and therefore we have different opnions. i can mostly only speak of the hp Zs.. i had an epson 9800 44 but didnt like it too much.

    the built in eye one of the Z works amazingly well with the paper presets and is hard to beat by a rip. which then needs a really powerfull color engine like onyx where you can actually work with all colors.

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