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Thread: EFI Black ink only profiling [PDF]

  1. #16
    PRC Member lessbones is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeColor View Post
    There are printers out there that this method would work and work well. However, you must first determine if your printers K inks are neutral (some manufacturers have neutral blacks and other do not).

    If the K inks themselves are not neutral, you CANNOT get a neutral print with this methodology. If your K inks have a cast you MUST color manage your blacks in order to produce a neutral black.
    exactly. this is why if you have read some of my other posts I have noted that this doesn't work for the x990 series of printers. But then again, as I explained, I have been using this method in EFI with the CONTONE profile-- this meaning it is sending only K data-- by nature the contone output decides the mixture of the black inks (whether there is cyan present, etc.) so we are just bypassing the use of other colors, not actually using only the Black, Light Black, and Light Light blacks. This is what occurs when using the HT profile with this method, and I have gotten significantly worse results.

    On the other hand, of course it depends on your printer, and the Lab values of the K inks therein-- as well as the mixture of colors into the black inks when using the CT profile with this method. All of the prints I have made this way with a 9900 using the HT profile have come out nasty green-- however, using the CT profile they are much closer to neutral, but still not anywhere near as good as on an 11880 or 4880.

    *** as a side note, this would probably work particularly well using 3rd party black inks that were optimized to be neutral.

  2. #17
    Moderator super silja will become famous soon enough super silja's Avatar
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    please measure wedge from 0 to 100%

    @lessbones
    i'am afraid that you're misinformed.
    with L*a*b 8,1,5 you haven't neutral black
    please measure your color bar and forward to us result with CIE L*a*b and spectral values
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    +-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+

  3. #18
    Junior Member JoeColor is on a distinguished road
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    silja,

    With all due respect, don't get caught up on your L*a*b* numbers. If it where just about numbers, computers would have replaced humans in the press room about 10 years ago. We are talking about color under reflected light, just because it reads L*25 a*0 b*0 doesn't mean it will be perceived as being neutral.

    T. Schruda,

    Neutral is just that, a what the observer perceives as being neutral. To me neutral simply means a color that does not have a color cast to it. No L*a*b* reading will ever tell you in truth there is no color cast, it can't, you don't know the lighting conditions of the viewed image.

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  5. #19
    PRC Member lessbones is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by super silja View Post
    @lessbones
    i'am afraid that you're misinformed.
    with L*a*b 8,1,5 you haven't neutral black
    please measure your color bar and forward to us result with CIE L*a*b and spectral values
    as i am only speaking from a subjective standpoint, this is not important to me. I know what I see, and from an 11880 and from a 4880 I see beautiful black and white prints- end of story.

    Additionally-- my results from using this method are based on my own testing-- nobody "informed" me that they would be neutral, just that the prints would use only black ink-- the above post explains the rest of my position on this...

  6. #20
    Moderator super silja will become famous soon enough super silja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lessbones View Post
    as i am only speaking from a subjective standpoint, this is not important to me. I know what I see, and from an 11880 and from a 4880 I see beautiful black and white prints- end of story.

    Additionally-- my results from using this method are based on my own testing-- nobody "informed" me that they would be neutral, just that the prints would use only black ink-- the above post explains the rest of my position on this...
    in this case,
    check use only black ink in color tab
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    +-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+

  7. #21
    aaron125
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    Quote Originally Posted by super silja View Post
    in this case,
    check use only black ink in color tab
    Do that and you're sure to RUIN your output! The black ink only setting is NOT the same as using the standard driver but without any coloured inks. The screening is completely different (to make up for the fact there are no coloured inks) and so are the apparent resolution/level of detail.

    Don't do what silja recommended. Stick to the EFI method.

  8. #22
    aaron125
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeColor View Post
    silja,

    With all due respect, don't get caught up on your L*a*b* numbers. If it where just about numbers, computers would have replaced humans in the press room about 10 years ago. We are talking about color under reflected light, just because it reads L*25 a*0 b*0 doesn't mean it will be perceived as being neutral.

    T. Schruda,

    Neutral is just that, a what the observer perceives as being neutral. To me neutral simply means a color that does not have a color cast to it. No L*a*b* reading will ever tell you in truth there is no color cast, it can't, you don't know the lighting conditions of the viewed image.
    Quote Originally Posted by lessbones View Post
    as i am only speaking from a subjective standpoint, this is not important to me. I know what I see, and from an 11880 and from a 4880 I see beautiful black and white prints- end of story.

    Additionally-- my results from using this method are based on my own testing-- nobody "informed" me that they would be neutral, just that the prints would use only black ink-- the above post explains the rest of my position on this...
    Agree 1000% with both of the above statements. No one ever mentioned ANYWHERE in the PDF file ANYTHING about neutrality anyway. Just that it would create a print using only the black inks, which is very easily verified using a normal magnifying glass.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeColor View Post
    T. Schruda,

    Neutral is just that, a what the observer perceives as being neutral. To me neutral simply means a color that does not have a color cast to it. No L*a*b* reading will ever tell you in truth there is no color cast, it can't, you don't know the lighting conditions of the viewed image.
    EXACTLY!! How do any of you reckon you get neutral images in a newspaper, which has a YELLOW paper base, not neutral white. Neutral can be WAY off Lab=L,0,0 and still appear very neutral and without colour cast because it has to APPEAR neutral to the human visual system, not some stupid (as in, stupid coz it can't think) measuring device.

    People need to get over their moronic obsession with numbers and measurements because this is art, after all, the ONLY measurement that means a thing is the number of sales being made or exhibitions/contests won. Other than that, what does it matter if the measurements are off the chart but the print still looks perfect? You gonna throw away a beuatiful, perfect print because a machine tells you some numbers are not reading as they're supposed to be? Only reason to do that is if the contract (as in, if some specific, agreed upon numbers are not met, the client won't pay) stipulates that is what must happen.

  9. #23
    Moderator super silja will become famous soon enough super silja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125 View Post
    Do that and you're sure to RUIN your output! The black ink only setting is NOT the same as using the standard driver but without any coloured inks. The screening is completely different (to make up for the fact there are no coloured inks) and so are the apparent resolution/level of detail.

    Don't do what silja recommended. Stick to the EFI method.
    this is not efi method,
    this is stupid trick for people who don't know what this check box do for final output

    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125 View Post
    Agree 1000% with both of the above statements. No one ever mentioned ANYWHERE in the PDF file ANYTHING about neutrality anyway. Just that it would create a print using only the black inks, which is very easily verified using a normal magnifying glass.


    EXACTLY!! How do any of you reckon you get neutral images in a newspaper, which has a YELLOW paper base, not neutral white. Neutral can be WAY off Lab=L,0,0 and still appear very neutral and without colour cast because it has to APPEAR neutral to the human visual system, not some stupid (as in, stupid coz it can't think) measuring device.

    People need to get over their moronic obsession with numbers and measurements because this is art, after all, the ONLY measurement that means a thing is the number of sales being made or exhibitions/contests won. Other than that, what does it matter if the measurements are off the chart but the print still looks perfect? You gonna throw away a beuatiful, perfect print because a machine tells you some numbers are not reading as they're supposed to be? Only reason to do that is if the contract (as in, if some specific, agreed upon numbers are not met, the client won't pay) stipulates that is what must happen.
    now you talk about newspaper who talk about news paper? i don't mind for for that

    so what if you use only black ink, you like to tell me that you are satisfied with b=5 and that is black for you?
    this is not black for me, this is brown, and nobody can sell to me sepia print as black and white.

    device measure and show imperfection of human eye and brain.

    measurement is important because : " if you measure it , you can control it"
    all color science is based on measurement.

    if you are satified with any output without control you don't need any cm workflow
    Last edited by super silja; 01-27-2012 at 02:31 PM.
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