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Thread: EFI Black ink only profiling [PDF]

  1. #1
    PRC Member lessbones is on a distinguished road
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    EFI Black ink only profiling [PDF]

    This was sent to me directly by someone at EFI at one point-- it is ridiculously useful for making awesome black and white prints on an EFI rip--

    I have had the best luck using these instructions with an Epson 11880 and 4880 (or any x880 series, as I believe the black inks to be the most neutral across the lightness range)

    In order to use these instructions WITHOUT an integrated colorimeter in your printer (eg the x990 series) you must print out the targets, then MANUALLY DRAW IN black lines that would usually be white spaces in between color patches, otherwise your spectrophotometer will not be able to read the sheets. More explanation on this if anyone needs it.

    Also the instructions in here are for using the halftone drivers-- this is NOT necessary, it works just as well using the CT driver, and perhaps even better since when using the contone driver the black tones seem to come out more neutral

    [URL=http://hotfile.com/dl/139733042/8580d5a/Creation_of_a_BW_Media_Profile.pdf.html]http://hotfile.com/dl/139733042/8580d5a/Creation_of_a_BW_Media_Profile.pdf.html[/URL]

    this can get complicated--- so feel free to ask me anything about doing this-- i've gotten it pretty solidly down at this point and it works super well--

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  3. #2
    Donor T. Schruda is on a distinguished road
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    thnx lessbones. indeed a very interesting uncovered subject so far.

    we talked earlier about EFI and rips.

    what i realized trying to build a good n-color profile for my Z3200 is that for colour prints the HP driver uses only the 4 black/gray inks on similar RGB values..
    when building a CMYK+RGB profile with efi.. it uses all sorts of colors to print gray!!

    disadvantage..

    now this at least would help to print b/w neutral!..

    but i also realizied so far that the HP driver is more advanced in using small dots/inks and with EFI halftoning you see a lot more dots even without a microscope!

  4. #3
    PRC Member lessbones is on a distinguished road
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    huh-- i see that EFI doesn't actually support the z3200 with a Contone driver-- thats unfortunate-- i find the same results as you for our epsons, however the contone driver gives much better, less "grainy" results while still letting EFI control the ink limits at least for CMYK--

    its the difference between EFI controlling ALL CcMmYKkk vs just CMYK and letting the printer determine what ink mixture is included in each process color. Maybe you can try using this b&w method and set the "color mode" in the first linearization step to just CMYK instead of individual ink control-- see if that leads to smoother results. As far as I can see there should be no real difference between that and the use of an actual contone driver....

  5. #4
    Donor T. Schruda is on a distinguished road
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    actually im at the point (where some people have been already years ago) that RIPs are for proofing ONLY.

    my RGB profiles are brilliant.. i finetuned some in the shadow contrast. i have a perfectly neutral gray axis and smooth gradients and dots.. what more do you want ?

    ok. i have one paper where the dark blues need to be limited which i cant with RGB.. but hey.. i worked days on it with EFI and wasatch.. and still couldnt get a better profile besides the dark blues.. but dots and gray was worth!
    and with CT (in colorgate fe) i cant limit the blue again.. haha

  6. #5
    Junior Member donmezsa is on a distinguished road
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    Thanks for info

  7. #6
    PRC Member lessbones is on a distinguished road
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    yeah i would also advise to use the rip for proofing only, although i have had really good results with this black ink only linearization, at least with those two printers.

  8. #7
    Junior Member quantic is on a distinguished road
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    thx for the info
    is the result better than with QTR ?

  9. #8
    PRC Member lessbones is on a distinguished road
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    probably not objectively, but you CAN use efi to arrange things if you need to print a bunch of things at once, which is a huge advantage for me--

    I find also that I get better results making a linearization this way in EFI, then creating a profile using QTR, and just converting files to that QTR profile before sending them to EFI, and then printing them with CM off in the rip-- then you've got the best of both words

  10. #9
    Moderator super silja will become famous soon enough super silja's Avatar
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    Exclamation nonsense

    This is nonsense
    if you look at CIE *L*a*b Value of black you can find that *b value is 5
    it means that this black is too yellow, print never would be neutral
    you need small amount of cyan and magenta to neutralize yellow cast.
    don't do that!
    +-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+
    |p|o|w|e|r| |t|o| |b|e| |y|o|u|r| |b|e|s|t|
    +-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+

  11. #10
    Junior Member JoeColor is on a distinguished road
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    You are correct. Epson Black prints more like sepia than black. You must color manage an Epson printer to get neutral blacks. But your procedure does make an awesome sepia tone print without wasting ink.

  12. Your ad here

  13. #11
    Donor willie0869 is on a distinguished road
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    I have had this request for imposition proofs where color is not important, but ink savings is. Also agree that this would not produce a neutral black output.

  14. #12
    aaron125
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    Quote Originally Posted by super silja View Post
    This is nonsense
    if you look at CIE *L*a*b Value of black you can find that *b value is 5
    it means that this black is too yellow, print never would be neutral
    you need small amount of cyan and magenta to neutralize yellow cast.
    don't do that!
    I think it is you who is the nonsense this time silja. That is the colour of the Epson black ink! What can EFI do about the ink inside an Epson printer? You expect them to magically neutralise a known non-neutral ink when using just that ink? That is nonsense, what you expect. How can they neutralize it using "small amount of cyan and magenta to neutralize yellow cast" when those inks are limited to 0%? They're not even being used.

    It has long been known that the Epson Ultrachrome black inks are definitely not neutral, mostly they are a brownish sort of colour. What you say makes no logical sense buddy.

  15. #13
    Moderator super silja will become famous soon enough super silja's Avatar
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    Exclamation don't do that: ink limit 0% it's nonsense

    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125 View Post
    I think it is you who is the nonsense this time silja. That is the colour of the Epson black ink! What can EFI do about the ink inside an Epson printer? You expect them to magically neutralise a known non-neutral ink when using just that ink? That is nonsense, what you expect. How can they neutralize it using "small amount of cyan and magenta to neutralize yellow cast" when those inks are limited to 0%? They're not even being used.

    It has long been known that the Epson Ultrachrome black inks are definitely not neutral, mostly they are a brownish sort of colour. What you say makes no logical sense buddy.
    hello aaron125, i am impressed with your talent how to turn things upside down , are you from Australia ?
    joecolor understand what i am talking about, and i hope there is lot others ....
    with ink limit 0, EFI don't know nothing about others inks in the printer.

    without any long discussion,
    1. is it for you L=8 *a=1 *b=5 neutral for you?
    2. hypothetically , do you think that you can reach L=16 *a=0 *b=0 with only black color from epson printer?

    simply give me the answers: yes or no!
    Q1=yes or no
    Q2= yes or no

    and small citation
    That is nonsense, what you expect. How can they neutralize it using "small amount of cyan and magenta to neutralize yellow cast" when those inks are limited to 0%?
    that's what i say
    don't do that: ink limit 0% it's nonsense
    +-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+
    |p|o|w|e|r| |t|o| |b|e| |y|o|u|r| |b|e|s|t|
    +-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+ +-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+

  16. #14
    Junior Member JoeColor is on a distinguished road
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    There are printers out there that this method would work and work well. However, you must first determine if your printers K inks are neutral (some manufacturers have neutral blacks and other do not).

    If the K inks themselves are not neutral, you CANNOT get a neutral print with this methodology. If your K inks have a cast you MUST color manage your blacks in order to produce a neutral black.

  17. #15
    Donor T. Schruda is on a distinguished road
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    smile.

    maybe we should define the word "neutral" ...?

    for one neutroal is a=0 and b=0... for others neutral is "black/gray ink only"... no matter what there Lab value is!

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