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Thread: Creating Abstract Profiles with ArgyllCMS

  1. #16
    Donor Gargoyle will become famous soon enough
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    Hello!
    Wow, I did not expected so many answers, thank you very much!
    I am sorry for the delay.

    Gargoyle, correctly, interpreted my aim accondingly to our previous discussion when I was asking how to modify an ICC Camera profile in order to tweak the colors...
    At the end I successfully (thank everybody who helped me!) managed to tweak the camera profiles but I still had 2 big problems:
    - The profiles where camera dependent, therefore changing camera and lighting condition everything would have varied a lot.

    Absolutely, you'll need to learn all the different parameters. You have to experiment.

    - When I had to convert the images back to a "normal" profile to send them around, like Adobe RGB, no matter what, the colors would have changed quite dramatically.

    Knowing the gamut of camera profile, workspace profile and monitor profile are very different in size and shape you should not trust what you see on monitor. For conversion use absolute colorimetric. For viewing use simulate paper white. Probably that may help you a bit. There are many parameters to understand if you want to have better understanding and control. Research on ICC standards, its math and the algorithms , application software white papers and etc.

    So now I am trying another way...
    My aim with the abstract profiles is the creation of a series of profiles with the pure aim of tweaking the colors, not to refine another profile previously created.
    Unfortunately I don't have all the technical knowledge as you do (but I am beginning to read some books on the subject) but, from what I understood, abstract profiles should not be connected to a specific camera or camera profile as they work in LAB...

    Photoshop supplied abstract profiles are colorspace independent. Unfortunately this is not the case with refine tool from Argyll. The purpose of Argyll is too tweak the Source profile to match the closely to the color behavior of the Target colors or profile in the form of Abstract profile use for color correction of the source. I have to confess I haven't read thoroughly regarding the refine tool. You have to check Argyll document if you can omit RGB and work entirely in CIELab values and supply it as argument for the refine tool.

    Now, having decided to go for the abstract profiles and not device link...
    How can I make them with Argyll or other free resources?

    Read the documentation. There are probably other tools. Probably photoshop and scanin -r tools but should be in CIELab values or try to email the author

    Can't I simply save a TIFF in LAB mode and use it in Argyll?
    Or how do I change the color in color think?

    Sorry, I haven't d this. Please let us know when you found an easy method.

    About the problems of converting the image to different profiles in photoshop I don't that is too much of an issue.
    In the converting panel, when selecting "abstract" everything seems to be working properly with the standard abstract profiles provided by photoshop.
    Same thing when I select the abstract profiles in Capture and then I export the resulting tiff with another RGB profile like Adobe.
    Last edited by Gargoyle; 02-06-2013 at 07:40 PM.

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  3. #17
    Junior Member AlexG is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ale_Paris View Post
    How can I make them with Argyll or other free resources?

    Can't I simply save a TIFF in LAB mode and use it in Argyll?
    There is a GREAT utility called ColorLab by former Logo company (was the developer of GretagMacbeth).
    http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=1071&Action=support&Softw areID=486

    With this utility (export as) you can convert ASCII Lab TXT measurements file to LAB TIFF and back. So you can take Lab TXT measurements file (lets say Lab COlor 1521, whatever), convert it to Lab-TIFF, edit it in Photoshop as you want, then convert it back to ASCII TXT measurements file and to create abstract profile between original and final Lab TXT's.

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  5. #18
    Member Ale_Paris is on a distinguished road
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    Solution!!!

    Hello!

    I am sorry for my late reply (as usual you would now think) but I have been away...

    So...
    I've been speaking with the developer of Argyll CMS and he suggested to use "scanin -c" paired with the ICC profile in use with the images (AdobeRGB1998) in order to create the *.ti3 files.

    This methods works but the profiles I've been able to create so far are not really precise: the modifications I made in photoshop were somehow different from what I get applying the abstract profile to the same original image...
    I am now wondering if it is a matter of color charts generated with "targen" and the number of patches I am using...could it be? Anyway I am now woriking with tables with 4180 color patches...

    Thank you AlexG, I'll take a look right now to see if I can do what you suggest!

    Thank you!



    Ale

  6. #19
    Member Ale_Paris is on a distinguished road
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    Hello,

    I hope you are well...
    I am experimenting a bit with ColorLab...

    The problem is that once I've loaded the list (and everything seems to work fine) and I click on:
    file-->export-->tiff image
    then it says "An error in the color modules occurred. (Illegal argument) (Error 20703)

    Do you know how I get around this?

    Thank you very much!


    Ale

  7. #20
    Member Ale_Paris is on a distinguished road
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    I am also experimenting with ColorThinkPro and the "Extract Unique Color Values" function.

    In this way (but also using ColorLab), thing I don't understand is how to get the "correct numbers", I mean, the s I get using scanin -c command in Argyll.
    Once again I am not an expert so please excuse me if I say something stupid or obvious...

    In ColorThinkPro, after having created the list, I see that there are some options:
    1) when saving this panel appears --> [URL="http://postimage.org/image/bt0ufpprt/"]http://postimage.org/image/bt0ufpprt/[/URL]
    what should I check? (the image show the standard setting)
    2) before saving I can access a "color setup" panel --> [URL="http://postimage.org/image/gb3037ad3/"]http://postimage.org/image/gb3037ad3/[/URL]
    once again, what should I select?

    Thank you very much for your help!


    Ale

  8. #21
    Member Ale_Paris is on a distinguished road
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    I am still experimenting and I am getting closer...

    First of all I've seen that if the color list that I create with ColorThinkPro is too big it will not be loaded in ColorLab therefore I am forced to work with relatively small chart composed of, more or less, 290.000 patches.
    I create this chart with the command:
    "timage -p2 test.tif"

    The second problem I encounter is the fact that once I change the colors of test.tif in photoshop and I re-extract all the unique color values I get a different number of single color values! Therefore I can't proceed as the refine command doesn't work if the reference files have a different of patches (obviously).

    Anyway, the whole procedure I am using is:
    1) create the chart (that is not technically a chart) with: timage -p2 test.tif
    2) extract all the unique color values in ColorThinkPro
    3) importing the file in ColorLab to save the list once again
    4) converting this last *txt file to *.ti3 with "txt2ti3" command in Argyll (it doesn't recognize the list created by ColorThinkPro) (still, at the end of the procedure, it says "device values not found. Hope that's OK!", I hope that's ok too...)
    5) Repeat steps 2-3-4 for the copy of test.tif with the alterated color
    6) Theoretically proceed with refine but it doesn't work for the reason I explained before...


    :-)


    THANK YOU

  9. #22
    Junior Member AlexG is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ale_Paris View Post
    The problem is that once I've loaded the list (and everything seems to work fine) and I click on:
    file-->export-->tiff image
    then it says "An error in the color modules occurred. (Illegal argument) (Error 20703)
    Do you know how I get around this?
    What version of ColorLab are you using? I'm using 2.8.13 and it works as expected.

    The other reason of this error is non-rectangular testchart. It HAVE to be rectangular! Add or delete some patches at the last column to make it rectangular.

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  11. #23
    Member Ale_Paris is on a distinguished road
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    Perfect,

    thank you very much!
    That was the issue with the exporting TIFF images...
    I still can't save the Color Exchange Format file because it says:
    "A compnt is missing. (Error 21524)"

    :-(

  12. #24
    Member Ale_Paris is on a distinguished road
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    YES!

    Here is the full method:
    1) Prepare an image in Argyll CMS with the command "timage".
    It has to be fairly small otherwise the other programs will go crazy. I suggest to leave the basic parameters and to use the -p option (my value is 2).
    2) Import the image in ColorThinkPro and extract the unique color values, save the list.
    3) Open the list with Color Lab, add the patches to make it a rectangular chart and export as TIFF (from now on let's call this file "matrix").
    4) Make a copy of matrix, open it in Photoshop and make all the color corrections you want, save as TIFF (from now on let's call this file matrix-modified)
    5) Import matrix modified and matrix in ColorThinkPro and "Convert all color to list". Do not select "Extract unique color values" otherwise probably you will get list with different number of colors and it doesn't work.
    6) Save the list and import them in ColorLab. Export the list as *.txt files.
    7) Convert the *.txt file into *.ti3 file with the command "txt2ti3" in Argyll CMS.
    8) Use refine and these *.ti3 file to generate your abstract profile!



    Thank you very much guys, I would have never d it without you!

  13. #25
    Member Ale_Paris is on a distinguished road
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    The only thing is that I still get the error:

    "Error in file format. (Error 20203)"

    when I load lists in ColorLab that are bigger that 29550 patches...

    Is there a way to get around this problem?

    Thank you!

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  15. #26
    Junior Member AlexG is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ale_Paris View Post
    The only thing is that I still get the error:
    "Error in file format. (Error 20203)"
    when I load lists in ColorLab that are bigger that 29550 patches...
    Is there a way to get around this problem?
    I think, no. It seems to be the limitation of ColorLab.
    But you can do the convertion to ASCII TXT measurements (step 5 in your method) by formatting values in Excel or Notepad.

    But whay are you trying to use such big number of patches? I think 5000-10000 is more than enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ale_Paris
    I still can't save the Color Exchange Format file because it says:
    "A compnt is missing. (Error 21524)"
    This is because the file should contain both device-independent (Lab, SPKT or XYZ) datas AND device-dependent (CMYK or RGB) values.

    But I think that CXF is useless for your method.

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  17. #27
    Member Ale_Paris is on a distinguished road
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    Hello,

    thank you for getting back to me!

    If I could do step 5 in excell or notepad it would be great!
    How should I format everything? I didn't really understand... :-)

    I did not know how many patches I should use but I thought that more patches would have lead to more precise results.
    So far I am still having some problems because the abstract profile I create doesn't replicate the color corrections made in photoshop very precisely.
    Most of the time there is a lack of contrast and the image, if there is a general hue shift, tends to be more neutral in the abstract profile...
    Is there anything I could do?

    Also, I don't know why, but Capture doesn't recognize the abstract profiles...
    Is there a specific place where I should "install" them? Because in the general "profiles" directory they don't work...

    Thank you very much!


    Alessandro

  18. #28
    Junior Member AlexG is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ale_Paris View Post
    If I could do step 5 in excell or notepad it would be great!
    How should I format everything? I didn't really understand... :-)
    Oops, sorry, I mean step 6. So here you can avoid ColorLab with it's limitation.
    But you cannot do it for step 3, so forget about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ale_Paris
    So far I am still having some problems because the abstract profile I create doesn't replicate the color corrections made in photoshop very precisely.
    Most of the time there is a lack of contrast and the image, if there is a general hue shift, tends to be more neutral in the abstract profile...
    Is there anything I could do?
    I don't know, it's necessary to try...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ale_Paris
    Also, I don't know why, but Capture doesn't recognize the abstract profiles...
    Is there a specific place where I should "install" them? Because in the general "profiles" directory they don't work...
    Are you sure that Capture really can use it? Actually, abstract profiles can be used only in few programs.

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  20. #29
    Member Ale_Paris is on a distinguished road
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    Hello,

    well, yes, I understood it was for the process described in step 6 (I did not went back to reading everything)...
    How do you do it? Because ColorLab doesn't run on my laptop so I always have to pass the files between computers and it's pretty annoying...

    I think Capture supports abstract profile as in the panel where you can select the ICC profile for your camera you can also select some "special effects" like sepia, blu t, etc...and these I imagine are the abstract profile included in apple's software...no?! :-)

  21. #30
    Junior Member AlexG is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ale_Paris View Post
    How do you do it? Because ColorLab doesn't run on my laptop so I always have to pass the files between computers and it's pretty annoying...
    Just open TXT file after ColorLab in any text edit application like NotePad and you will see everything. It's just a regular text.
    Something like this:
    ------------------------------------
    KEYWORD "SampleID"
    KEYWORD "SAMPLE_NAME"
    NUMBER_OF_FIELDS 8
    BEGIN_DATA_FORMAT
    SampleID SAMPLE_NAME XYZ_X XYZ_Y XYZ_Z LAB_L LAB_A LAB_B
    END_DATA_FORMAT
    NUMBER_OF_SETS 72
    BEGIN_DATA
    1 A1 14.81 22.72 51.46 54.79 -37.37 -48.84
    2 A2 5.31 3.79 14.47 22.98 22.17 -44.74
    .....
    71 2J1 3.00 4.23 2.56 24.41 -16.96 6.78
    72 2J2 4.18 5.13 7.03 27.09 -10.04 -13.71
    END_DATA
    ------------------------------------
    So you need to enter your values in lines between BEGIN_DATA and END_DATA tags and to correct NUMBER_OF_SETS value - it's number of measurements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ale_Paris
    I think Capture supports abstract profile as in the panel where you can select the ICC profile for your camera you can also select some "special effects" like sepia, blu t, etc...and these I imagine are the abstract profile included in apple's software...no?! :-)
    What is Apple Capture? Actually I thought you've mentid Phase 1 Capture. In any cases, right now I don't have both these software, so I cannot try it...

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