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Thread: Complete profiling Tool

  1. #46
    Donor momo.cassiopeia is on a distinguished road momo.cassiopeia's Avatar
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    added dimensions in the Lab colorspace

    gee, i missed out big time. please someone start that as a special discussion and prove to me how you could add an extra dimension into the Lab colorspace.

    i beg you shampa, show me how you could squeeze an extra few nanos into the wavelength between blue and red light. that would be a revelation to all of us i guess and i would be the first to bow before you. 390 to 750 nm was all i ever knew to exist for visible light.

    please come back and explain! i beg you. because i am missing the point here.

  2. #47
    aaron125
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    Quote Originally Posted by shampa View Post
    I believe you misunderstand what device space is. It is simply the range of combinations of ink that can be physically put down. So adding another ink certainly does add another dimension.

    It has nothing to do with colour gamut. You could put the same ink in two tanks and it would still add a dimension in device space even though colour gamut stays almost the same (it may increase slightly since you can reach stronger densities)

    I presume that statement is just your misunderstanding of what device space is. Profiling apps do leave out large areas of device space but try to not leave out any of the device colour gamut.
    Just been reading through our rantings and ravings and found this little charmer, which I completely missed when originally posted.

    I'm very curious as to where this somewhat fanciful definition of yours, for device space, came from? Is it just something you personally came up with, I've certainly never read about it, heard of it or come across it even once in more than 7 years of attempting high end inkjet profiling and printing. What exactly are these 'dimensions' you speak of? What are they supposedly representing? Really makes no sense to me or anyone else on the forum, from what I can tell.

    But that line about putting the same ink in more than 1 ink channel and saying that this could somehow increase either density or gamut is absolutely an impossibility. I would love to find out how any colours or saturation or hues can grow larger when a certain ink has 'itself' printed over it from another channel in the printhead? What is the difference from having the 1 normal channel simply print over the same line many times? You must be familiar with 4-pass, 8-pass, 16-pass, etc. settings some printers have, right? It does exactly as it implies, the printer literally passes over the exact same piece/strip of paper to print in many layers, slowly building up to the desired density. But quite obviously it could not make any difference if the ink was being squirted out of the holes in the print head from 1 channel or 2. It is still the same ink. HAHAHA

    Quote Originally Posted by shampa View Post
    Where did you get the idea I was against multi-ink printers? They do produce great results, and the extra inks are worth it in many cases.
    But the RIPs are currently still quite immature in dealing with colour beyond CMYK and that partly has to do with the huge size of device space. It is important to know both the benefits and limitations so you can get the best out of them.
    Really, you've installed and printed using every RIP available? Your statement "the RIPs are currently still quite immature in dealing with colour beyond CMYK and that partly has to do with the huge size of device space." Obviously you're referring to the entire market, every available product, as you haven't put any limitation on your "the RIPs" which are available?

    I understand in that case that you've never seen any of Serendipity's RIP software, correct? Investigate both Black Magic and MegaRIP, read through their instruction manuals and then please tell me if you still think that all RIPs cannot print or deal with colour beyond CMYK.

    Seriously, were you on some crazy glue, petrol or paint-sniffing bender at the time and you were really off your face and high as a kite? It does seem a bit that way, reading over some of your posts again. HAHAHA. But I certainly like to have some discussions like these occasionally, gets the mind working in ways other than how I normally think, trying to follow what you're attempting to explain.

    One last thing - no profiling app leaves out any device space, as you put it. Your example of not having a 1200% target patch has nothing at all to do with the profiling program leaving anything out. Remember that there is something called ink limiting and channel limiting. There is no media in existence which could be used for fine art printing that could hold SO much ink, or even a 700% or 800% patch. Simply not possible. But that cannot be interpreted to somehow think that a profiling app is leaving out parts of device space. Do you now sorta see why I thought you must have been really high when you wrote that stuff?

    You do know I'm just having a laugh, right? I'm not trying to accuse you of being a junkie or drug fiend or anything like that. All in jest buddy. Mostly.

  3. #48
    shampa
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by momo.cassiopeia View Post
    gee, i missed out big time. please someone start that as a special discussion and prove to me how you could add an extra dimension into the Lab colorspace.

    i beg you shampa, show me how you could squeeze an extra few nanos into the wavelength between blue and red light. that would be a revelation to all of us i guess and i would be the first to bow before you. 390 to 750 nm was all i ever knew to exist for visible light.

    please come back and explain! i beg you. because i am missing the point here.
    Tetrachromats would disagree. Colour is a perceptual phenomena, not a physical one. But I digress - please show me where I talked about adding another dimension into Lab colourspace.

    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125 View Post
    Just been reading through our rantings and ravings and found this little charmer, which I completely missed when originally posted.

    I'm very curious as to where this somewhat fanciful definition of yours, for device space, came from? Is it just something you personally came up with, I've certainly never read about it, heard of it or come across it even once in more than 7 years of attempting high end inkjet profiling and printing. What exactly are these 'dimensions' you speak of? What are they supposedly representing? Really makes no sense to me or anyone else on the forum, from what I can tell.
    I did not invent the term, for example it is used frequently through through the Argyll CMS documentation. I believe it is also used in other fields that have nothing to do with colour.
    But, in the end it doesn't really matter what you call it, and since this seems to be a sticking point for many, I will henceforth in this discussion refer to it as 'ink channel combinations.' It is fairly basic maths that each additional ink adds another dimension to the range of possible ink combinations. On the other hand that additional ink may or may not add to the range of colours that can be printed, but certainly not in an exponential way.

    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125 View Post
    But that line about putting the same ink in more than 1 ink channel and saying that this could somehow increase either density or gamut is absolutely an impossibility. I would love to find out how any colours or saturation or hues can grow larger when a certain ink has 'itself' printed over it from another channel in the printhead? What is the difference from having the 1 normal channel simply print over the same line many times? You must be familiar with 4-pass, 8-pass, 16-pass, etc. settings some printers have, right? It does exactly as it implies, the printer literally passes over the exact same piece/strip of paper to print in many layers, slowly building up to the desired density. But quite obviously it could not make any difference if the ink was being squirted out of the holes in the print head from 1 channel or 2. It is still the same ink. HAHAHA
    There is no difference between printing the same ink on two channels and printing two passes of the same channel, except that usually multipass implies that the printer is printing a lower density each pass. Ie. multipass is not usually used to reach greater densities. It is a moot point anyway since the printer can usually deliver more ink than the paper can hold. But that point was precisely to indicate that adding a second channel of the same ink will add to the possible combinations of ink but not to the gamut.

    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125 View Post
    Really, you've installed and printed using every RIP available? Your statement "the RIPs are currently still quite immature in dealing with colour beyond CMYK and that partly has to do with the huge size of device space." Obviously you're referring to the entire market, every available product, as you haven't put any limitation on your "the RIPs" which are available?

    I understand in that case that you've never seen any of Serendipity's RIP software, correct? Investigate both Black Magic and MegaRIP, read through their instruction manuals and then please tell me if you still think that all RIPs cannot print or deal with colour beyond CMYK.
    Mock me if you will, but please don't put words into my mouth. I never said RIP cannot deal with colour beyond CMYK, I said they were immature at it. I have previously looked into Black Magic for proofing. It certainly can deliver some impressive results with multichannel artwork, but setting it up still seemed to involve a lot of guesswork or trial and error in setting various ink parameters to get the proof to consistantly match the print. On the other hand, getting accurate CMYK proofs is almost childs play in many RIPs these days.
    I don't know anything about MegaRIP, but I assume it is based on similar technology to Black Magic.
    Many other RIPs deal with additional inks by combining the ink channels into 3 or 4 logical channels and then profiling the printer as an RGB or CMYK device. This works well for light CMYK inks, but not as well for other hues (O/R/G/B/P)

    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125 View Post
    Seriously, were you on some crazy glue, petrol or paint-sniffing bender at the time and you were really off your face and high as a kite? It does seem a bit that way, reading over some of your posts again. HAHAHA. But I certainly like to have some discussions like these occasionally, gets the mind working in ways other than how I normally think, trying to follow what you're attempting to explain.
    Explaining myself has never been my strong point. Maybe I'd be making more sense if I was on the crazy glue. Good to see your enjoying the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125 View Post
    One last thing - no profiling app leaves out any device space, as you put it. Your example of not having a 1200% target patch has nothing at all to do with the profiling program leaving anything out. Remember that there is something called ink limiting and channel limiting. There is no media in existence which could be used for fine art printing that could hold SO much ink, or even a 700% or 800% patch. Simply not possible. But that cannot be interpreted to somehow think that a profiling app is leaving out parts of device space. Do you now sorta see why I thought you must have been really high when you wrote that stuff?
    So what part of not putting it in doesn't mean leaving it out? Does it make more sense when I call it ink channel combinations? Ie. the profiling app will leave out certain ink channel combinations if it 'thinks' they won't add to the colour gamut, or are unprintable. To do that it has to make some assumptions about the way the inks interact. If it gets it too wrong, then it could well miss out on parts of the colour gamut. This would usually show up in the shadows (e.g. it can be a cause of blocked out, muddy shadows) or in the saturated colours (causing colours at the edge of the gamut boundary to get needlessly shifted.)

    At its most basic, a profiling app knows there are X channels, and nothing more. It builds a picture of what colour those channels are and how they interact by sampling them. The more patches it samples, the better picture it can build. In the real world patches come at the premium of materials and time, so profiling apps are trying to get the best result in the fewest number of patches. To do that it starts off with a few assumptions, like the colours of the ink; that a 50% patch will be a similar hue at roughly half the density of a solid path; that two inks overprinted will produce a colour similar to the 'multiply' blend mode. It then uses those assumptions to try to spread the patches over the colour gamut in a perceptually uniform manner. The more successful it is (i.e. the better its assumptions match reality) the better result it will get for a given number of patches. But if its initial assumptions are way off, then the patches will not be spread evenly across the colour gamut and you will require more patches to get an acceptable result.
    BTW, that is why the Colormunki gets quite good results with its 2 stage test chart, despite a low total patch count. The first chart is used to correct the assumptions that the software made, and to optimise the patches of the second chart to best fill in the largest gaps.

    Now with CMYK, the nature of the inks and how they interact is fairly well known; plus with only four ink channels the range of combinations is fairly limited. Around 1000 patches will give a reasonable profile, 2000 patches will give a good profile and by the time you get to 4000 you are gaining very little extra.

    With additional inks, their nature is not as well known, plus you have a whole heap more possible ink combinations. The profiling software cannot make nearly as good predictions, and so a lot more patches are needed to get a similar quality profile.

    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125 View Post

    You do know I'm just having a laugh, right? I'm not trying to accuse you of being a junkie or drug fiend or anything like that. All in jest buddy. Mostly.
    I could be. You never know who you are talking to on the net.

    Wow...long post (TLDR: I vehemently deny all accusations against me, plus a bunch of other stuff that made no sense to anyone else)

  4. #49
    Moderator super silja will become famous soon enough super silja's Avatar
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    what is color

    @ shampa
    color is Psychophysical phenomena
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  5. #50
    Junior Member Csupi is on a distinguished road
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    Lightbulb output device and rip independent solution is GMG ColorServer with Smart Profiler

    GMG Color Server with Smart Profiler will do all that you need and way more. Just read up on it. It has a wizard guided interface making it easy to create a fully color managed workflow even if you have no idea about color management.

  6. #51
    Moderator super silja will become famous soon enough super silja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Csupi View Post
    GMG Color Server with Smart Profiler will do all that you need and way more. Just read up on it. It has a wizard guided interface making it easy to create a fully color managed workflow even if you have no idea about color management.
    and price is?
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  7. #52
    Junior Member Csupi is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by super silja View Post
    and price is?
    I didn't say it's cheap I said it's the best automated solution I saw so far. A basic config would set you back around US$15-20K depending on your needs. If they sell Smart Profiler separately it might be significantly cheaper (as that's the one you really want).

    I got a quote for our shop that was $65K, and yes the boss said we are not getting it.

    I had it running for 30 days with a dealer dongle, it's stable, quick (if you put proper hardware under it) and an ape can create a profile with it as all you have to do is to read in the swatches and click next, read in the swatches and click next... if you are familiar with profiling in EFI XF, well it's something similar just has a lot better optimalization at the end.

  8. #53
    Junior Member jonl8038 is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Csupi View Post
    GMG Color Server with Smart Profiler will do all that you need and way more. Just read up on it. It has a wizard guided interface making it easy to create a fully color managed workflow even if you have no idea about color management.
    I fully agree that GMG colorserver with smart profiler is what you need most ; you do not need to be a color guru to work with it and the color server can be set to automation hotfolder that detect pdf files that comes in and have a 4D engine color conversion (transformation) also known as device link. What i like most is it has built in Adobe Print Engine that can solve many of your pdf problem and finalize a PRINT READY file.LUV IT^^^

  9. #54
    Junior Member swatch20 is on a distinguished road
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    i1 pro

    What is the differences i1 pro non UV and UV?

  10. #55
    Junior Member peopeo is on a distinguished road
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    Sorry but this is also true for laser printers / toner?

  11. Your ad here

  12. #56
    PRC Member lessbones is on a distinguished road
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    doesn't profilemakerpro do all that? or one of the new i1 suites?

  13. #57
    Junior Member mrdee999 is on a distinguished road
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    usually such broad set of features can be found in close architecture soft (RIPs) cause multitude of characteristics such printer paper and color system behavior all must be taken in an account - and that's why only profiling solutions are very limited in what you can do - and RIP on other hand have a bunch of side apps and functions to access and control what close systems have to offer

  14. #58
    Junior Member sunmage is on a distinguished road
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    I use i1 profiler
    It's useful profiling Kit.

    Profilemaker5 than i1 Profiler quality is better.
    i1Profiler is little better quality than Monacoprofiler.

  15. #59
    Junior Member 455602799 is on a distinguished road
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    I install it and i think it have all i need the problem is how i use it? I read the manual but no have a workflow explanation. only have the descriptions and the functions of the different parts.
    any one work with toolbox i have too much questions.

  16. #60
    aaron125
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    Quote Originally Posted by 455602799 View Post
    I install it and i think it have all i need the problem is how i use it? I read the manual but no have a workflow explanation. only have the descriptions and the functions of the different parts.
    any one work with toolbox i have too much questions.
    What program are you talking about? You say you've installed it but the manual isn't all that great, no workflow explanation, etc. But what is it? Which profiling software did you install & what spectro are you using in your setup?

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