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Thread: Color shifting in dark area

  1. #1
    PRC Member lessbones is on a distinguished road
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    Color shifting in dark area

    I as well have heard you mention this regular maintenance a number of times silja, and would be very interested to know exactly what you mean and what the methodology is for carrying out such a procedure--

    just out of curiosity.

    Also, not to hijack this thread, but I've been noticing lately especially when doing black & white printing that I tend to get green/magenta shifts towards the blackest blacks when profiling with the i1 Pro (spectro) and I was wondering if anyone has any techniques they use to even out the profile in the range closest to black--

    (im currently using an i1pro with i1 io and profilemaker pro)

    -----

  2. #2
    aaron125
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    Quote Originally Posted by lessbones View Post
    I as well have heard you mention this regular maintenance a number of times silja, and would be very interested to know exactly what you mean and what the methodology is for carrying out such a procedure--

    just out of curiosity.

    Also, not to hijack this thread, but I've been noticing lately especially when doing black & white printing that I tend to get green/magenta shifts towards the blackest blacks when profiling with the i1 Pro (spectro) and I was wondering if anyone has any techniques they use to even out the profile in the range closest to black--

    (im currently using an i1pro with i1 io and profilemaker pro)

    -----
    Need to know a lot more about your printing setup to give any meaningful assistance. Things like: what brand/model printer are you using, Genuine inks or 3rd-party, what media are you using, is it listed in the driver settings and is it even from the printer manufacturer, what app/workflow are you using for your B&W printing?

    If you can give me answers with the required level of detail, I can certainly show you a few places where things might be going wrong and a bunch of settings and such which should go towards helping with your problems.

    Just as a quick FYI, PMP5 was never much use for creating decent B&W inkjet profiles and certainly QuadTone RIP is of great assistance in the creation of fine B&W inkjet prints and printer profiles.

  3. #3
    Bob12345
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    Interesting tests, but isn't 150cd/m2 a bit blindingly bright? Nobody in the photography field would have their monitor that bright.

  4. #4
    PRC Member lessbones is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125 View Post
    Need to know a lot more about your printing setup to give any meaningful assistance. Things like: what brand/model printer are you using, Genuine inks or 3rd-party, what media are you using, is it listed in the driver settings and is it even from the printer manufacturer, what app/workflow are you using for your B&W printing?

    If you can give me answers with the required level of detail, I can certainly show you a few places where things might be going wrong and a bunch of settings and such which should go towards helping with your problems.

    Just as a quick FYI, PMP5 was never much use for creating decent B&W inkjet profiles and certainly QuadTone RIP is of great assistance in the creation of fine B&W inkjet prints and printer profiles.
    guess I did jump the gun a little bit there--

    I'm using epson printers-- an 11880, a 9900, and a 4880-- I print out of photoshop directly using profiles made with PMP, as well as out of EFI. When using EFI i am importing my PMP RGB profiles with the RGB profile connector, and I am generally printing on Chromaticity Validation Satin media. All stock epson inks.

    I use QTR regularly to make profiles for B&W output using the black ink only method detailed in that other thread I started, but I also have used it to create RGB profiles for use with the Epson ABW driver.

    It just seems to me that in areas close to black, even when profiling a monitor with the eye one pro I get slight (but noticeable) green/magenta shifts in the darkest areas, whether black and white or not, although obviously it is more noticeable in black and white images.

    When using the black-ink-only method this doesn't occur as much considering the profile doesn't include color data. I guess really I was curious about the shifting since I've noticed it in monitor profiling also, so I was wondering if this is a limitation of the eye one pro, as when profiling a monitor with a DTP94 I have not seen this issue as much, just the eye one pro seems to choke on the lowest luminance values, and pull the rgb curves a little too far from linear--

    sorry for being unclear-- its mostly just a curiosity thing, so my explanation is kind of muddled

  5. #5
    aaron125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob12345 View Post
    Interesting tests, but isn't 150cd/m2 a bit blindingly bright? Nobody in the photography field would have their monitor that bright.
    Well, yes and no, actually. I agree that it is a much too high brightness level, but 160cmd is actually what FOGRA requires for their soft proofing specification/certification (not 100% sure, but pretty sure there are others who have specified 160cmd as their brightness level aimpoint).

    The reason for such a high luminence level is for a few reasons, including:
    -Being oriented towards the pre-press industry, FOGRA soft-proofing specification/certification specifies 160cdm as they also specify an equally high/bright 2000Lux for the viewing box used to view the printed proofs, therefore both pieces of hardware are showing a similar brightness level for their WP.
    -This high luminence level also allows for seeing the necessary detail in the dark shadow tones easily. Obviously, it's not good for the shadows to block up and not differentiate the various tones and hues at those low levels, so the high luminence definitely helps to avoid this happening.
    -By having a very bright viewing box environment, the problem of 'My print is so much darker than the screen image' is essentially eliminated.

    Having said all that, I for one, certainly don't run my screen anywhere near that bright, setting it to a WP of 100cdm, 6500K and BP of 0.4cdm for use with glossy/lustre papers, having an ideal contrast ratio of around 250:1, very similar to the final printed output. For use with matte surfaces, I usually change the BP to either 0.5cdm or 0.6cdm, giving a contrast ratios of around 200:1 and 166:1, depending if the surface is a smooth matte or a textured matte (the textured papers usually have a lower DMax, and therefore lower contrast ratio).

    All of this is on an Eizo CG242W, using ColorNavigator 6.x and an i1d3 for calibration and profiling. When set to 100cdm, I find I get a very good match between the screen soft-proof and the final printed output and need maybe1 of sometimes 2 test prints to get everything sorted for final output.

    Quote Originally Posted by lessbones View Post
    guess I did jump the gun a little bit there--

    I'm using epson printers-- an 11880, a 9900, and a 4880-- I print out of photoshop directly using profiles made with PMP, as well as out of EFI. When using EFI i am importing my PMP RGB profiles with the RGB profile connector, and I am generally printing on Chromaticity Validation Satin media. All stock epson inks.
    Have you tried MonacoPROFILER 4.8 for RGB printer profiles? I too used to use PMP5.x for my printer profiles until I came by a working version of PROFILER 4.8 and never looked back. I find it really is that much better with both accuracy and smoothness/transitions. I've not done side-by-side tests of shadow/dark tones comparison, but find no problems with my Monaco profiles/prints. Something I use quite often, which is simply unavailable in PMP5 is the contrast/saturation expansion/contraction controls for the Perceptual intent in the settings when creating a profile in PROFILER. It really makes a huge, noticeable difference if using, for example, a paper with a large or very large gamut and excellent DMax, perhaps something like Harmon Gloss FB Al (not sure about the new Hahnemuhle version of it as I still have stocks of the original Harmon paper), Epson Exhibition Fiber, Ilford Smooth High Gloss Media (it's a plastic-film base, not actually a paper and can't be torn or ripped, and the output is said to be similar to IlfoChrome - I don't know about that, never seen an IlfoChrome print in person but I know this paper is like no other on the market from any other brand. Unfortunately it isn't available anymore, luckily I still have some stock of it left ;-)

    Back to you though...
    With your EFI printing, are you referring to EFI XF 4.5.1 or some other version of XF or a different EFI RIP completely? If you're using XF 4.5.1, I would recommend to definitely make your profiles from start to finish all inside of XF as that way your linearization and profile are all created with the same colour management program, there is nothing in the profile which XF might not understand and they are generally of quite decent quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by lessbones View Post
    I use QTR regularly to make profiles for B&W output using the black ink only method detailed in that other thread I started, but I also have used it to create RGB profiles for use with the Epson ABW driver.

    It just seems to me that in areas close to black, even when profiling a monitor with the eye one pro I get slight (but noticeable) green/magenta shifts in the darkest areas, whether black and white or not, although obviously it is more noticeable in black and white images.
    But all of this is for colour prints, I would do about 10-15% in B&W. And when I do, I rarely want an absolutely perfectly neutral print as this is not what appeals to me and the print will almost never be viewed under the correct, perfect D50 spectrum which would be needed for the profile and print to really be accurate. I also simply don't like the appearance of a dead-on, neutral print as I find that under most lighting conditions, it won't be neutral at all, so I don't aim for that in the first place. A very slight amount of (split) toning goes a long way towards emphasizing various parts of the image/print.

    Quote Originally Posted by lessbones View Post
    When using the black-ink-only method this doesn't occur as much considering the profile doesn't include color data. I guess really I was curious about the shifting since I've noticed it in monitor profiling also, so I was wondering if this is a limitation of the eye one pro, as when profiling a monitor with a DTP94 I have not seen this issue as much, just the eye one pro seems to choke on the lowest luminance values, and pull the rgb curves a little too far from linear--

    sorry for being unclear-- its mostly just a curiosity thing, so my explanation is kind of muddled
    What you don't mention is your viewing environment. If you were viewing under a home incandescant light bulb, very warm, at around 2700K or so and with a very large red spectrum and very little blue, or maybe under standard home flurescent lighting, this would have a very big impact on the colour shifts you see.

    The reason it is happening less is not do with the profile not having colour data, it's because the print itself has no colour inks involved in its creation. Essentially the Epson ABW profiles could be considered to have no colour data in them as they have R=G=B pixel values, yet you still notice colour shift in your final output.

    This is the wierdest part - I DEFINITELY recommend you get yourself an i1d3 for screen calibration/profiles as the i1Pro is rather inadequate for the very darkest tones produced by high-quality screens and the DTP94 is ancient, although as you mention, you still get better performance from it than your i1Pro. This should be evidence enough that a decent quality, new technology colorimeter like the i1d3 would give you even better profiles (IMHO). It certainly does on my screen.

    BTW, what screen are you using?
    Hope some of that helps, keep us informed as to how you go.

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  7. #6
    aaron125
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    Why has this thread (or part thereof) been renamed to "Color banding on screen and proof" when there doesn't seem to be any mention of that anywhere in the posts which are currently a part of this thread.

    Where is the rest of the earlier posts, maybe 2-3 posts earlier than the 'starting/opening' post for this thread?

    Whoever keeps doing this (who actually is the person doing this?), it would be extremely helpful, and just plain old good manners and being thoughtful, if, when chopping up threads and creating new ones with half of an old thread, can you please put in a link at the top of the new thread, very first post to let everyone know where all of these posts have come from? At the very least, the original thread name is required as a bare minimum, but a link would be best.

    And why not just leave everything where it came from in the first place?

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  9. #7
    PRC Member lessbones is on a distinguished road
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    yes, funny that renaming, "color shifting" would have been more appropriate-- it took me until getting back home today to actually re-find this thread--

    anyway, thank you so far aaron for your help-- i'll post the rest of those answers in a little bit (probably tomorrow). But just quickly, my experience is at the lab I work in which has multiple Eizo C210/211s as well as NEC 2410WUXI (or whatever the hell its called, the older sRGB gamut version with the off axis filtering) as well as a newly acquired NEC PA301W (an absolute steal at refurb $1399 btw-- just sayin') so thats one wide gamut monitor and a handfull of sRGB ones (as well as some old 19" Lacies that are not really worth mentioning-- they take about 2 hours to calibrate the internal LUTs through the DVI)

    so i've got those, and an i1pro, an i1display 2, and a DTP94b to work with

  10. #8
    Moderator super silja will become famous soon enough super silja's Avatar
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    forum rules

    first,
    read forum rules,
    2. Please post in relevant sections. Posting in wrong section more than twice will get an warning.
    3. No topic hijacking (going off topic). Respect other members threads.


    second
    if you follow rules there is no need for other actions, or let's ask pradmin to change rules


    color shift is now ok
    first post is beginning of "hijacking", other post are irrelevant for this thread.
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  11. #9
    aaron125
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    Oh, I see... so if I understand correctly, these aren't yours, they all belong to some company? I was previously thinking you were talking about your own HW at home/studio/etc. No probs though, just nice to get correct situation, every bit helps.

    You never mentioned before that you also have an i1d2 - until you are able to get an i1d3, definitely use the i1d2 for screen calibration/profiling. I used to before I got my i1d3 and the i1d2 is definitely much more sensitive and much better results from the darker regions of tones/display output levels. My i1Pro used to (and still does) give all sorts of strange readings for my screen BP and is not repeatable at all at such low brightness levels. I often saw at least a 10x greater error with the i1Pro vs i1d2 in the measurement results of the darker tones.

    Ye, I agree, those NEC PA241/271/301 are some fabulous screens, especially when price is taken into consideration but they're very high quality whichever way one looks at them. Did yours come with an NEC branded i1d2 or did you get just the screen only? You should be using the i1d2 with the NEC screen also. And their software, of course.

  12. #10
    aaron125
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    Quote Originally Posted by super silja View Post
    first,
    read forum rules,
    2. Please post in relevant sections. Posting in wrong section more than twice will get an warning.
    3. No topic hijacking (going off topic). Respect other members threads.


    second
    if you follow rules there is no need for other actions, or let's ask pradmin to change rules


    color shift is now ok
    first post is beginning of "hijacking", other post are irrelevant for this thread.
    Much easier is to just get off your high-horse and not take every word in the rules so literally and being so rigid. There is NO problem if the thread starter doesn't complain, a topic can be a dynamic and changing thing, doesn't have to be 100% only talking about the exact question in the 1st post. It is normal for a conversation to go where it is taken, a conversation is not an army regiment which is guided in everything it does and if it goes off-track, gets beaten back into line (much as you love to do with other people's threads and conversations).

    So just relax, IF and WHEN the admin has actually asked you to move something, do so, otherwise just leave it the hell alone, you make more trouble than good. Absolutely no one benefits by your chopping and changing other people's threads as you see fit, without their permission. Did you ever ask thread starter if they want their thread half hacked up and put into another thread? NO, of course not!

    Quote Originally Posted by super silja View Post
    Respect other members threads.
    Why don't you practice EXACTLY what you copy/pasted from the rules silja. Now who's the one not sticking to the rules?
    Last edited by super silja; 02-11-2012 at 04:42 AM. Reason: same topic

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  14. #11
    Moderator super silja will become famous soon enough super silja's Avatar
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    answer

    very soon this answer will be moved to recycle bin

    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125 View Post
    Much easier is to just get off your high-horse and not take every word in the rules so literally and being so rigid. There is NO problem if the thread starter doesn't complain, a topic can be a dynamic and changing thing, doesn't have to be 100% only talking about the exact question in the 1st post. It is normal for a conversation to go where it is taken, a conversation is not an army regiment which is guided in everything it does and if it goes off-track, gets beaten back into line (much as you love to do with other people's threads and conversations).
    it' easier to track conversation. it's not normal in thread "EFI how to" to speak about scanner calibration module.
    in private conversation lessbones said that he had shifting/bandingd problem ( give me more info ) with monitor and print

    So just relax, IF and WHEN the admin has actually asked you to move something, do so, otherwise just leave it the hell alone, you make more trouble than good. Absolutely no one benefits by your chopping and changing other people's threads as you see fit, without their permission. Did you ever ask thread starter if they want their thread half hacked up and put into another thread? NO, of course not!
    there is no need for that. this is duty of moderator to moderate forum.
    otherwise soon we should have topic, "i need urgent help", "i am in trouble"... "my printers does not working anymore"
    who like to read this topic? no one


    Why don't you practice EXACTLY what you copy/pasted from the rules silja. Now who's the one not sticking to the rules?
    i am not impeccable.
    i follow the rules
    rule number two then rule number three

    i don't like phrases but .... last but not least
    don't troll this forum
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  15. #12
    PRC Member lessbones is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125 View Post
    Oh, I see... so if I understand correctly, these aren't yours, they all belong to some company? I was previously thinking you were talking about your own HW at home/studio/etc. No probs though, just nice to get correct situation, every bit helps.

    You never mentioned before that you also have an i1d2 - until you are able to get an i1d3, definitely use the i1d2 for screen calibration/profiling. I used to before I got my i1d3 and the i1d2 is definitely much more sensitive and much better results from the darker regions of tones/display output levels. My i1Pro used to (and still does) give all sorts of strange readings for my screen BP and is not repeatable at all at such low brightness levels. I often saw at least a 10x greater error with the i1Pro vs i1d2 in the measurement results of the darker tones.

    Ye, I agree, those NEC PA241/271/301 are some fabulous screens, especially when price is taken into consideration but they're very high quality whichever way one looks at them. Did yours come with an NEC branded i1d2 or did you get just the screen only? You should be using the i1d2 with the NEC screen also. And their software, of course.
    I'm very interested in trying out the i1d3-- and interesting what you have said about the i1d2-- in my tests in the past I had thought it was inferior to the dtp94 (which I had originally thought was the best available due to integrated-color.com's recommendation) but I will re-try the i1d2 with these screens. I'm using the supplied software for both the Eizos and the NECs, but the i1d2 that I have here didn't come with the NECs, so it apparently doesn't have whatever wide-gamut tuned filter NEC claims they have put into their particular branded model.

    A friend of mine has the NEC version of the i1d2 and as far as we can tell it still gives a greenish tinted neutral when calibrating a wide gamut montior (which doesnt occur with the i1pro) and it has been necessary to tweak the settings to a warmer color temp (somewhere around 5800K to maintain a neutral D65-like appearance) And before I get whacked here for speaking in non-measurement specific absolute terms, yes I realize that this is perceptual only and not precise...

    it's becoming more difficult to dodge the posts regarding the forum rules to actually get to the meat of the topics, i'm having trouble understanding the point at which enforcement of rules can get in the way of actual discussion.... but thank you silja for renaming the thread to something more intuitive

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