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Thread: Color proofing on Epson stylus Photo 1400

  1. #16
    aaron125
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    I think you've been hit on the head too many times before you get on a plane Mr T. HAHAHA!! How could the 1400 possibly have better shadow detail than the x900 printers, when it has just 1 single black ink and the x900 has 3?? It simply couldn't be possible unless you were comparing the x900 in it's worst case scenario and the 1400 in it's best case scenario.

    When you say the 1400 has better shadow colours, do you mean better colours or better detail and separation? With half decent custom profiles and careful editing in Ps using some luminosity masks to control the mid and shadow tones exactly as one wants them, not just leaving an image as it is and trying to let the driver take care of everything, there is no possible way that the 1400's single black ink and vastly inferior print-heads and general print mechanism could be any better than the top of the range printer from Epson.

    I have a 3880 and I know that with my work I have absolutely awesome performance in the shadow tones for detail, seperation, linearity is near perfect and so on. I would really like to know where you have seen the printed output of the 2 printers you mention and the 1400 giving superior results. What papers did you use in each printer and what profiles were used?

    Regarding ink fading, again, the pigments in the x900 will last SO much longer in real world use, there is almost no comparison. The tests Wilhelm does are accelerated and not really much like real life, actual conditions in which one would have their work on display. There is SO much more UV in real life light, it's very possible the prints could be exposed to sunlight also, not just kept in a dark drawer somewhere.

    Those tests are not for use of the prints in real life, on a wall, etc. They are primarily to be able to compare different brands of inks, papers and so on in a non-variable environment, NOT how these prints would react or fade in a real-life situation.

    If on a wall in a house or office and being exposed to pollutants, sunlight and UV, I can guarantee that the pigment inks will outlast the dyes without any doubt and that there is no way the 1400's DuraBrite inks will get to anywhere near 1/2 the life span of an x900 pigment print.

    But please let me know what papers and profiles were used, re: better shadow colours. Very interested to find out.

    And welcome to the PrintRoot forums buddy!! Hope you keep contributing to our little part of the interweb.

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  3. #17
    aaron125
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    Quote Originally Posted by PanozJani View Post
    A free alternative would be to use ArgyllCMS for linearization and profiling but you should measure at least 2-3000 patches for a good profile.
    You can't use ArgyllCMS for linearizing as it is not a RIP, it's simply a profile creation app. Without being able to use a printer as a pure CMYK device, it is not possible to linearize as the printer will still be an RGB printer, using the RGB drivers. Because of this, one has no control over the CMYK inks because there will always be an internal and unknown conversion to RGB by the printer driver and therefore, linearization is not possible unless using Argyll with a RIP.

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  5. #18
    Junior Member Mr T is on a distinguished road
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    Mr T

    I am very familar with Epsons' 3 black inks but light black and ligh light black inks have nothing to do with shadow colors. You will see in a normal Epson Ultrachrome setup the shadow color ganmut is quicky reduced to shades of black so dark blues, reds, browns are not quite there. Examining the ICC profile closely you will also see that the SWOP colors or very dark SWOP colors, same for ISO coated etc, are just covered by the Ultrachrome inks. The 1400 durabrite inks have no problem creating a dark brown or blue or red or green. Download the PowerRIP X 1400 and look at premium luster or Epson Semi gloss proofing paper and compare it to those same papers on the PowerRIP 7900. Use Chromix Colorthink do the comparisons. PowerRIP uses Epson Screening modules for the ultrachrome inks which matches Epson's own premium RGB profiles. The 1400 wins on deep dark shadpow colors. Remember when we first went to pigments and ink jet and htey were faded compare to dye inks. Well Pigment inks got better and so did the durabrite dye inks. Yes ultrachromee is a superior ink in many ways but sorry not for shadow color saturation.

    From Epson's USA Website and other Epson websites give more information. About the same as the waranty on the Ultrachrome as speciifed by Epson.

    3 Smudge, scratch, water and fade resistant on Epson photo papers. For CDs/DVDs, resistant only on specially-treated discs.

    4 Display permanence based on accelerated testing of prints displayed under glass in indoor display conditions; album permanence based on accelerated testing of prints in dark storage conditions. Actual print stability will vary according to media, printed image, display conditions, light intensity, temperature, humidity and atmospheric conditions. Epson does not guarantee the longevity of prints. For maximum print life, display all prints under glass or UV filter or properly store them.

    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125 View Post
    I think you've been hit on the head too many times before you get on a plane Mr T. HAHAHA!! How could the 1400 possibly have better shadow detail than the x900 printers, when it has just 1 single black ink and the x900 has 3?? It simply couldn't be possible unless you were comparing the x900 in it's worst case scenario and the 1400 in it's best case scenario.

    When you say the 1400 has better shadow colours, do you mean better colours or better detail and separation? With half decent custom profiles and careful editing in Ps using some luminosity masks to control the mid and shadow tones exactly as one wants them, not just leaving an image as it is and trying to let the driver take care of everything, there is no possible way that the 1400's single black ink and vastly inferior print-heads and general print mechanism could be any better than the top of the range printer from Epson.

    I have a 3880 and I know that with my work I have absolutely awesome performance in the shadow tones for detail, seperation, linearity is near perfect and so on. I would really like to know where you have seen the printed output of the 2 printers you mention and the 1400 giving superior results. What papers did you use in each printer and what profiles were used?

    Regarding ink fading, again, the pigments in the x900 will last SO much longer in real world use, there is almost no comparison. The tests Wilhelm does are accelerated and not really much like real life, actual conditions in which one would have their work on display. There is SO much more UV in real life light, it's very possible the prints could be exposed to sunlight also, not just kept in a dark drawer somewhere.

    Those tests are not for use of the prints in real life, on a wall, etc. They are primarily to be able to compare different brands of inks, papers and so on in a non-variable environment, NOT how these prints would react or fade in a real-life situation.

    If on a wall in a house or office and being exposed to pollutants, sunlight and UV, I can guarantee that the pigment inks will outlast the dyes without any doubt and that there is no way the 1400's DuraBrite inks will get to anywhere near 1/2 the life span of an x900 pigment print.

    But please let me know what papers and profiles were used, re: better shadow colours. Very interested to find out.

    And welcome to the PrintRoot forums buddy!! Hope you keep contributing to our little part of the interweb.

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  7. #19
    aaron125
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    It's all well and good to use ColorThink to inspect profiles but this is NOT what happens in the real world on actual pieces of paper with ink on them.

    One NEVER uses D50 to illuminate their prints, which is what is being shown in ColorThink gamut plots. And the light source illuminating the actual physical print will show up shadow details in ways which cannot be shown in any gamut plot.

    The gamut graphs do not show how a particular printer's output will look when actually printed onto paper. It can give a decent estimate of which colours might be possible to print, but absolutely cannot begin to tell us what those colours will actually look like once on paper.

    Too many people get cought up with doing simulations or going by dE numbers and the like. The only thing which will tell us what a print will look like is the actual physical print itself, not any graph or suchlike, no matter how capable the software. And yes, I have been using ColorThink Pro for around 5+ years and in fact, is 1 of only 2 apps I've ever actually paid for in my life. I love it but there is only so much it can predict and actual physical prints are the ONLY way to know what a particular printer is able to do.

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  9. #20
    Member PanozJani is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125 View Post
    You can't use ArgyllCMS for linearizing as it is not a RIP, it's simply a profile creation app. Without being able to use a printer as a pure CMYK device, it is not possible to linearize as the printer will still be an RGB printer, using the RGB drivers. Because of this, one has no control over the CMYK inks because there will always be an internal and unknown conversion to RGB by the printer driver and therefore, linearization is not possible unless using Argyll with a RIP.
    Well, probably i shouldn't use the word "linearizing", but if you use a .cal file for testchart generation or at profile generation as described here:

    Code:
    Only the registered members can see the download links/content. pleaseĀ Register to gain full access.
    you should get somewhat better behaving RGB profiles. I proposed high number of patches to overcome "badly behaving areas" of a rather cheap printer without a RIP (since i assumed he wouldn't use one).

  10. #21
    Junior Member Mr T is on a distinguished road
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    Use a RIP or not it has a better gamut

    Quote Originally Posted by PanozJani View Post
    Well, probably i shouldn't use the word "linearizing", but if you use a .cal file for testchart generation or at profile generation as described here:

    Code:
    Only the registered members can see the download links/content. pleaseĀ Register to gain full access.
    you should get somewhat better behaving RGB profiles. I proposed high number of patches to overcome "badly behaving areas" of a rather cheap printer without a RIP (since i assumed he wouldn't use one).
    Of course ICC profiing is needed. It can be CMYK or RGB. There are low cost RIPs that will turn the 1400 into a true CMYK device. Then you can linearize and proceed down the CMYK path. Or for only RGB profiling, you can read a lot of points, 4096 or more, and get a very good RGB profile. The issue as we all know is if the printer moves out of tolerance with RGB profiles a new profile is needed rather than a linearization adjustment. Epson printers drift under 2% usually from printer to printer. Better than most offset presses.

  11. #22
    tininho
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    EFI Colorproof

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  13. #23
    Junior Member Mr T is on a distinguished road
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    EFI is Fine and so is PowerRIP X

    Any modern RIP has excellent colour managment. It gets down to price and which printers are supported. Even cheap inks can be used to make a quality proof if they are properly profiled. RIP vendors ofter supply base profiles with the RIP to get you started. RIP vendors profile manufacturere inks. If you make your own profiles you appreciate the time that goes into making them accurately and properly. So to use cheap inks you need to make a good profile for the cheap inks. Add the cost of the profiling system to the cost of the RIP and you get an idea of what this costs to get started. Are you really saving money on the non manufacturer inks? If the profits in your printing/proofing business depend on how much you save on ink cartridges per year. Pick another business or raise your prices. Life should not be that hard.

  14. #24
    Donor neon is on a distinguished road
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    you can try PrintFab
    http://www.printfab.net

  15. #25
    Junior Member gofree is on a distinguished road
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    damn! I am also using 1400, and never known that CISS is possible. Will be great to get more detail from more lads here.

  16. Your ad here

  17. #26
    Junior Member nadersat is on a distinguished road
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    use the orignal

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