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Thread: Chit chat about profiling

  1. #1
    aaron125
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    Chit chat about profiling

    That's a very simple question to answer (with another question... sorry): how many people do you know who still use or are even interested in high-end scanning or scanners in general?

    Quite obviously, there was simply no business case that could be presented to X-Rite's accountants, which would make them decide that the time spent on updating the scanner profiling part of the app would be spent wisely. I can't even remember the last time I used my scanner, let alone bothered to make a profile for it.

    And with the huge reduction in the price of medium/large format sensors constantly falling even further, many who might have shot film and then scanned, might have just decided to take the plunge and finally change-over to a digital workflow.

    Regarding your Eizo screen, I would and most definitely do recommend all owners to purchase an i1d3, regardless of what sensor hardware they currently own. With the i1d3 being so inexpensive and the results so good, it really is doing a dis-service to onesself if you've got an Eizo screen and still using an old i1d2 or i1Pro (or any other old sensor technology) for calibration and profiling. At the very least, you owe it to yourself to see if you can borrow an i1d3 and give it a try with ColorNavigator 6.x and see the improvement for yourself.

    What exactly do you mean when you say that "from what I hear, seems like could get quality as good as the RIP ones"? What is as good as which RIP's output? Many RIPs are using 3rd-party colour management engines and profiling solutions, many even using X-Rite's own profiling technology.

    But for ANY printer driver to be compared to a properly and competently configured RIP is essentially not possible. Using a standard driver, obviously it is not possible to linearize prior to profiling, no such thing as ink limiting or channel limiting, no control over the screening algorythms in use, etc.

    What RIP are you comparing/using? Most any RIP should have visible improvements in the shadow tones and darker regions of a print than any standard driver. Grey Balance might not necessarily be improved using the RIP but linearity almost certainly will.

    And regardless of which RIP a person is using, one can always make use of the RIP for linearization and ink limiting and then use i1Profiler (or any other profiling app) for creation of the final profiles. There's absolutely no reason one has to use the complete profiling solution which the RIP natively supports and uses.

  2. #2
    Bob12345
    Guest
    Hi Aaron, I do know a few technical illustrators who use high-end scanners for scanning pen-and-ink drawings into CAD software, also I am told by one of them that the entire housing department of their local authority do likewise. The same person says the architects he knows do the same. I also meet fine artists who use high-end scanners to digitize their work. I use an Epson Expression 10000XL for scanning old photos and artwork for myself and others. From my recent experience I would say high-end scanners are far from dead - they are still considerably less expensive than a medium- or large-format digital camera back. I would have thought that many of the people who buy the new i1Profiler have upgraded from Monaco or ProfileMaker and those people have lost an important feature they had before (so must continue to use the old software for their scanners). To me, it seems a great shame that accountants are making decisions that should be left to others!

    Re the Eizo, I will look into the i1d3 - haven't done so yet.

    The RIP profiles I was refering to are the ones from ImagePrint (Colorbyte).

    Apart from the great layout options in ImagePrint, and the ability (for an extra fee) to print directly to TIFF from InDesign, Illustrator etc. is the unique (and hugely money-saving) advantage of their "Phatte Black" function with Epson inkjet printers. Without ImagePrint, you have to choose between putting Photo Black ink or Matte Black ink cartridges in the printer, and when you want to change, you waste a ton of ink (and time) in the process. With Phatte Black you replace the "Light Light Grey" (LLK) cartridge with Matte Black, so you always have both blacks available (though this means using different profiles, obviously). This feature alone means ImagePrint truly pays for itself eventually. (I'm sounding like an evangelist, but I'm not, honest!).

  3. #3
    aaron125
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob12345 View Post
    Hi Aaron,
    Hi Bob, always good to have some interesting discussions here and interesting people with whom to discuss things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob12345 View Post
    I do know a few technical illustrators who use high-end scanners for scanning pen-and-ink drawings into CAD software, also I am told by one of them that the entire housing department of their local authority do likewise. The same person says the architects he knows do the same. I also meet fine artists who use high-end scanners to digitize their work. I use an Epson Expression 10000XL for scanning old photos and artwork for myself and others.
    I use a Wacom Intuos 3 9x12 tablet for my work in Ps/Lr/ACR/any other photo editing and I've seen many vids from the Wacom website showing how many artists, designers, illustrators, comic-book art, automotive designers, etc. are using Wacom tablets these days to input their work directly into the computer, rather than creating a hard-copy by hand and somehow digitizing after creation. As I can't draw to save myself and even stick figures is a bit advanced for me, I can't say from personal experience how well this would work out but it seems pretty logical and reducing 1 step in the workflow also speeds things up and reduces costs and suchlike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob12345 View Post
    From my recent experience I would say high-end scanners are far from dead - they are still considerably less expensive than a medium- or large-format digital camera back. I would have thought that many of the people who buy the new i1Profiler have upgraded from Monaco or ProfileMaker and those people have lost an important feature they had before (so must continue to use the old software for their scanners). To me, it seems a great shame that accountants are making decisions that should be left to others!
    My thinking exactly, hence none of these users have lost anything at all as they still have their working copy of whatever they upgraded from, so can still use it to produce scanner profiles.

    How can it seem a shame that accountants recommendations are being brought into consideration regarding final program features and functions? It's perfectly normal because why would any company include something which had very little chance of helping to sell their product, and by including such a feature, takes time away from the engineers/programmers to work on the much more important/popular/used more frequently parts of the program. That just seems like common sense to me. It would be of much use if X-Rite had put all their effort into projector and n-colour/multi-colour profiling, at the expense of RGB/CMYK would it, as this is such a small part of the projected user base and still of quite limited use/value in todays hardware environment (of course some people use it, or like scanning, it wouldn't be there ;-).
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob12345 View Post
    Re the Eizo, I will look into the i1d3 - haven't done so yet.
    Just buy one ASAP, you won't regret it. Especially as they can be purchased from a shop on ebay for US$250 including free worldwide postage, 100% legit/warranty/retail boxed version. I'm very happy with mine and was dissapointed I had to wait so long for Eizo to update their profiling app to support it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob12345 View Post
    The RIP profiles I was refering to are the ones from ImagePrint (Colorbyte).

    Apart from the great layout options in ImagePrint, and the ability (for an extra fee) to print directly to TIFF from InDesign, Illustrator etc. is the unique (and hugely money-saving) advantage of their "Phatte Black" function with Epson inkjet printers. Without ImagePrint, you have to choose between putting Photo Black ink or Matte Black ink cartridges in the printer, and when you want to change, you waste a ton of ink (and time) in the process. With Phatte Black you replace the "Light Light Grey" (LLK) cartridge with Matte Black, so you always have both blacks available (though this means using different profiles, obviously). This feature alone means ImagePrint truly pays for itself eventually. (I'm sounding like an evangelist, but I'm not, honest!).
    I've read about their Phatte Black and it's use and benefits and reviews of Phatte Black in use a few years back but it hasn't really been needed for a while now, since the 11880, 3800, 3880 and x900 printers were introduced, getting rid of the incredible, horrendous US$40 or so in ink which was wasted in the black ink changeover process.

    Another big advantage that has essentially been solved by the Epson inks is the improvements with gloss differential, bronzing and metameric failure - all hugely improved in the most recent 7900 and 9900 printers, still absolutely excellent in the 11880 and 3880 printers.

    Can't remember if you mentioned, but what printer are you using Bob?

  4. #4
    Moderator super silja will become famous soon enough super silja's Avatar
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    metameric failure

    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125 View Post
    Another big advantage that has essentially been solved by the Epson inks is the improvements with gloss differential, bronzing and metameric failure
    what metameric failure? i am curious to know what do you mean in the context of the epson color? (again sRGB?)
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  5. #5
    Bob12345
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    Quote Originally Posted by super silja View Post
    what metameric failure? i am curious to know what do you mean in the context of the epson color? (again sRGB?)
    Definition of Metameric Failure:

    Colors will match under one light source but not another.

  6. #6
    Moderator super silja will become famous soon enough super silja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob12345 View Post
    Definition of Metameric Failure:

    Colors will match under one light source but not another.
    aaron alter ego bob12345?
    which color? explain with your words
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  7. #7
    Bob12345
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125 View Post

    How can it seem a shame that accountants recommendations are being brought into consideration regarding final program features and functions?
    Because accountants are thinking of only one thing - profit! Users are interested in things like features, usability, performance etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125 View Post

    I've read about their Phatte Black and it's use and benefits and reviews of Phatte Black in use a few years back but it hasn't really been needed for a while now, since the 11880, 3800, 3880 and x900 printers were introduced, getting rid of the incredible, horrendous US$40 or so in ink which was wasted in the black ink changeover process.
    Yes, but we can't all afford to "update" our printer every time they bring out a "better" one.

    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125 View Post

    Another big advantage that has essentially been solved by the Epson inks is the improvements with gloss differential, bronzing and metameric failure - all hugely improved in the most recent 7900 and 9900 printers, still absolutely excellent in the 11880 and 3880 printers.

    Can't remember if you mentioned, but what printer are you using Bob?
    Epson UltraChrome K3 ink. Can't say that gloss differential or metameric failure (or metamerism) have been a problem at all and bronzing is so slight as to be unnoticeable (except in certain lighting conditions at certain angles, if you're really 'looking' for it). But I stick to top-quality fine art paper most of the time, which probably helps.

    Re Wacom tablets: I know for a fact that some (especially older, that is to say, pre-digital) illustrators just can't make the transition from real pens to tablets. Plus, you can't get A0+ tablets!

  8. #8
    Bob12345
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by super silja View Post
    aaron alter ego bob12345?
    which color? explain with your words
    Sorry Miles, I was just being flippant!

    Better leave Aaron to expain himself.


  9. #9
    aaron125
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by megaeric View Post
    Anybody knows if EFI will help me with epson 7880C textile ink to get beter results with colors ?
    No. How could ANYONE possible know this except for you? No one here knows what your current output is like or how your printer reproduces colours, so how could we possibly know if any program of any nature would be able to improve said quality or colours?
    Quote Originally Posted by hustleruk View Post
    can efi express be calibrated in the same way?
    Do you mean in calibrated in terms of colour management or network/application printing setup?
    Quote Originally Posted by super silja View Post
    PCS - profile connection space is link between input and output, "a translation between two color spaces can go through a profile connection space" - citation
    ICC describe that PCS could be CIE lab or CIE XYZ. in that way every human visible color can be described. Vendors like Heidelberg, EFI, Xrite use CIE Lab or CIE XYZ as pcs.

    sRGB is color space
    sRGB icc profile describe sRGB color space. Everything (from input) is converted inside printer driver to sRGB and after that converted to Printer/media color space. In that way sRGB is PCS
    No it's not!! sRGB in your example is simply a limiting factor, not a PCS in any form. How you can possibly think that sRGB could ever be a PCS or have ANY calculations performed inside sRGB to enable it to become a PCS is simply pure nonsense and utter immpossibility.

    You say vendors like "Heidelberg, EFI, Xrite use CIE Lab or CIE XYZ as pcs." EVERYONE uses Lab/XYZ as their PCS, not just some vendors. Please show me a company which uses any other PCS than Lab/YXZ? Or will this be like those maintenance procedures that you claim everyone has to do on their spectro HW to keep it working for 5+ years but which you also never mention exactly what they are (and no one else has ever heard of this ever being needed or even suggested)?

  10. #10
    aaron125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob12345 View Post
    Sorry Miles, I was just being flippant!
    I didn't think you were, seemed a perfectly normal definition/explanation for the term metameric failure to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob12345 View Post
    Better leave Aaron to expain himself.
    What for? You had it spot on buddy!
    I'm not really sure why silja asked about this as I'm sure you know very well what metameric failure is, silja. You always have comments to say about everything, so I find it very difficult to believe you don't know about prints looking 1 way under 1 type of lighting, take the print to another type of lighting and the colours change/don't match anymore.

    You know, same as why B&W prints will exhibit colour shifts under certain lighting conditions but not others.

    These are all examples of metameric failure - two different colours, which, when viewed in lighting condition "A" seemed to match but in lighting condition "B", they no longer match and look visibly different.

  11. Your ad here

  12. #11
    aaron125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob12345 View Post
    Yes, but we can't all afford to "update" our printer every time they bring out a "better" one.
    True, but it's been at least 3-4+ years since the B&W changeover has really been a problem. And, if using a printer where it still is an expensive issue, that printer really should be upgraded to something much more current as the huge advances in quality, gamut, fineness of detail, ink use per print, head clogging, etc mean that there are SO many reasons to upgrade to a current technology printer and experience the definite visible improvements in output quality.

  13. #12
    Moderator super silja will become famous soon enough super silja's Avatar
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    somebody who claim that sRGB is not colorspace again have brain failure
    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125 View Post
    I didn't think you were, seemed a perfectly normal definition/explanation for the term metameric failure to me.

    What for? You had it spot on buddy!
    I'm not really sure why silja asked about this as I'm sure you know very well what metameric failure is, silja. You always have comments to say about everything, so I find it very difficult to believe you don't know about prints looking 1 way under 1 type of lighting, take the print to another type of lighting and the colours change/don't match anymore.
    this is not metameric failure this is color stabaility
    You know, same as why B&W prints will exhibit colour shifts under certain lighting conditions but not others.
    this is again color stability
    These are all examples of metameric failure - two different colours, which, when viewed in lighting condition "A" seemed to match but in lighting condition "B", they no longer match and look visibly different.
    thanks good, this is metameric effect

    No it's not!! sRGB in your example is simply a limiting factor, not a PCS in any form. How you can possibly think that sRGB could ever be a PCS or have ANY calculations performed inside sRGB to enable it to become a PCS is simply pure nonsense and utter immpossibility.
    thats what i am saying, sRGB colorspace is limiting factor if you use printer driver to print directly from desktop software
    You say vendors like "Heidelberg, EFI, Xrite use CIE Lab or CIE XYZ as pcs." EVERYONE uses Lab/XYZ as their PCS, not just some vendors. Please show me a company which uses any other PCS than Lab/YXZ? Or will this be like those maintenance procedures that you claim everyone has to do on their spectro HW to keep it working for 5+ years but which you also never mention exactly what they are (and no one else has ever heard of this ever being needed or even suggested)?
    Microsoft is one of company (including HP) i and i already show you, but your memory does not last long.
    Because that you're sloppy and ignorant it does not mean that others are.
    Time to time read user manual, there is a lot interesting things inside.
    Maybe one day you will learn that sRGB is color space.
    Quote Originally Posted by aaron125
    It is just a simple ICC profile
    Last edited by super silja; 02-09-2012 at 12:05 PM.
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  14. #13
    aaron125
    Guest
    How about get off the drugs or drink silja? I am not sloppy, it is you who is that way. You still have not told us how to maintain our spectro HW - why? Because it isn't possible. But you claim it is, so tell us all, how can me do this maintenance?

    None of what I wrote has ANYTHING to do with colour stability - that is when colours change IN THE SAME light because inks are not stable or because of dry-down or similar. I never mentioned that even once. On every occasion, I mentioned lighting changing - hence can obviously be only one effect, metameric failure. (are you high again dude?) HAHAHA!!!

    sRGB is NOT a PCS because calculations cannot be performed using sRGB alone to convert one profile to another in the same way as Lab/XYZ - if it IS possible, please show me the exact way how it can be done. I'll be waiting a very long time because I KNOW you will not be able to provide any proof whatsoever. Because there isn't any as it cannot be done. So instead of just saying the same stuff over and over, provide evidence to back up your tales.

    So get off the drugs and provide some actual, meaningful evidencial proof to back up even one of your tall-tales if you like to have any credibility.

  15. #14
    Bob12345
    Guest
    Now, now, Ladies!


  16. #15
    aaron125
    Guest
    I know Bob, you laugh, but he continues to say the same crap over and over and never once actually any evidence or proof to give some credibility to his claims. I'm gonna be waiting a very long time for anything that can even vaguely backup what he claims - spectro maintenance, LOL!!

    And then like a little girl, when he gets proven incorrect, starts to get all personal and bitch-slappy, letting me know I have brain failure, I'm ignorant, I have a short memory and all the rest of his 12-year-old child behaviours which get put into use whenever one of his claims is questioned and he cannot provide any evidence to proove what he's saying has any amount of truth to it. But that's just how silja is I spose, all talk, no proof.

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