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Thread: basICColor Print vs i1Profiler

  1. #1
    Donor mcjam45 is on a distinguished road
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    basICColor Print vs i1Profiler

    Hi,

    Any first hand experience on which of those two packages works best for you and why when it comes to creating RGB printer profiles?
    I found that they produce quite different results (creating profiles from the same measurement data set) especially when using the perceptual rendering intent and I'm still trying to figure out which one to buy/use on a regular basis for art reproduction and fine art printing, so qualified opinions would be much appreciated.

  2. #2
    Junior Member pechatnik.su is on a distinguished road
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    my opinion:
    for perceptual rendering - i1profiler.
    not so easy to create individual test card.
    but maybe.
    and if you take it with a new device i1 Pro 2 - will be small comfort.

  3. #3
    ton
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    I think what is best for RGB profiler is MonacoProfiler

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    Donor mcjam45 is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by ton View Post
    I think what is best for RGB profiler is MonacoProfiler
    Yes, MonacoProfiler is great, but profiles form i1Profiler are very similar because i1Profiler's profiling engine is based on the Monaco engine.
    Opinions on i1Profiler vs basICColor Print would be much appreciated.
    Btw, basICColor offers a new version of DropRGB (v4) which introduces a slightly improved profiling engine compared to basICColor Print 3.
    Last edited by mcjam45; 01-21-2013 at 09:28 AM.

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    Banned smilem is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcjam45 View Post
    Btw, basICColor offers a new version of DropRGB (v4) which introduces a slightly improved profiling engine compared to basICColor Print 3.
    Are you sure about that? Why should basiccolor update dropRGB for 300Eur an not the print for 1300Eur? The print was update 5 years ago, I contacted basiccolor about this and still no response.

    I would like to know why basiccolor print costs about the same as i1profiler, but makes profiles only for printers, and quality wise they are worse.

  6. #6
    Donor mcjam45 is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilem View Post
    Are you sure about that? Why should basiccolor update dropRGB for 300Eur an not the print for 1300Eur?
    Sure about what? That they updated dropRGB? The new version 4 is available since 2 months or so and you can download a trial from basccolor's website. I'm positive that print will also get an update sor or later.

    I would like to know why basiccolor print costs about the same as i1profiler, but makes profiles only for printers, and quality wise they are worse.
    Why do you think that they are worse?
    Last edited by mcjam45; 01-25-2013 at 01:52 PM.

  7. #7
    Banned smilem is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcjam45 View Post
    Why do you think that they are worse?
    Here is CMYK comparison i1profiler vs. CMYKick 2, the
    Max dE: 10.16 vs. Max dE: 4.34 speaks for itself. I wonder what would be Copra 2.3 profile look like.
    It is 10x more expensive than profiler, does that make at least 2x better ? Or does Germans like to overprice their stuff like basiccolor, at those price levels either those that buy their software and targets have to much my or are stupid to check what they get for their my IMHO.

    CMYKICK 2
    Number of Samples: 1620

    Delta-E Formula dE2000

    Overall - (1620 colors)
    --------------------------------------------------
    Average dE: 1.58
    Max dE: 10.16
    Min dE: 0.00
    StdDev dE: 1.22

    Best 90% - (1457 colors)
    --------------------------------------------------
    Average dE: 1.27
    Max dE: 2.85
    Min dE: 0.00
    StdDev dE: 0.65

    Worst 10% - (163 colors)
    --------------------------------------------------
    Average dE: 4.33
    Max dE: 10.16
    Min dE: 2.86
    StdDev dE: 1.61

    --------------------------------------------------


    I1Profiler
    Number of Samples: 1620

    Delta-E Formula dE2000

    Overall - (1620 colors)
    --------------------------------------------------
    Average dE: 1.37
    Max dE: 4.34
    Min dE: 0.05
    StdDev dE: 0.78

    Best 90% - (1457 colors)
    --------------------------------------------------
    Average dE: 1.19
    Max dE: 2.52
    Min dE: 0.05
    StdDev dE: 0.59

    Worst 10% - (163 colors)
    --------------------------------------------------
    Average dE: 2.97
    Max dE: 4.34
    Min dE: 2.54
    StdDev dE: 0.41

    --------------------------------------------------

  8. #8
    Donor mcjam45 is on a distinguished road
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    Thanks for the comparison. I'm not sure if this makes i1Profiler the clear winner though. The aim of a good profiling engine is not just to create a profile strictly based on the measurement data. Otherwise it could easily just map the sampling points to the lab values of the profile and you would get a dE near 0.
    The engine has to do things like smoothing, recognize and filter noise and inconsistent measurement data, neutralize gray shades and so on…so a highter dE doesn't automatically mean that the engine is inferior in my opinion.

    However, I did a similar comparison with an RGB profile an got the following results:

    ---
    Number of Samples: 1728
    Delta-E Formula dE2000

    Rendering Intent: absolute colormetric

    i1Profiler (colorful preset):
    Average dE: 0,50
    Max dE: 2,01

    basICColor print 3 (default settings):
    Average dE: 0,38
    Max dE: 1,68
    Last edited by mcjam45; 01-26-2013 at 06:16 PM.

  9. #9
    Banned smilem is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcjam45 View Post
    Thanks for the comparison. I'm not sure if this makes i1Profiler the clear winner though. The aim of a good profiling engine is not just to create a profile strictly based on the measurement data. Otherwise it could easily just map the sampling points to the lab values of the profile and you would get a dE near 0.
    The engine has to do things like smoothing, recognize and filter noise and inconsistent measurement data, neutralize gray shades and so on…so a highter dE doesn't automatically mean that the engine is inferior in my opinion.

    However, I did a similar comparison with an RGB profile an got the following results:

    ---
    Number of Samples: 1728
    Delta-E Formula dE2000

    Rendering Intent: absolute colormetric

    i1Profiler (colorful preset):
    Average dE: 0,50
    Max dE: 2,01

    basICColor print 3 (default settings):
    Average dE: 0,38
    Max dE: 1,68
    Hmm, I remember testing basiccolor print and it was way worse than i1Profiler, that was when i1Profiler was v1.0 and everybody used PM5. AFAIK with RGB it is more easy to make good profiles. With CMYK you have a bunch of parameters that you do not know how to set up because manufacturers often do not even include profiles with their devices and if they do the customer almost always uses non original ink to begin with. So with CMYK there is always room for improvement once you find out the right parameters.

    Have you tested Copra2 ? It's 10x more expensive then i1Profiler, does it work even 2x better? The problem is that Germans make encrypted profiles with trial license those profiles can't be used until you unlock the damn software with right license.

  10. #10
    PRC Member ColorWizard is a glorious beacon of light ColorWizard is a glorious beacon of light ColorWizard is a glorious beacon of light ColorWizard is a glorious beacon of light ColorWizard is a glorious beacon of light ColorWizard is a glorious beacon of light ColorWizard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilem View Post
    Have you tested Copra2 ? It's 10x more expensive then i1Profiler, does it work even 2x better? The problem is that Germans make encrypted profiles with trial license those profiles can't be used until you unlock the damn software with right license.
    Take into account that most of basICColor products, including print, uses ColorLogic [URL="http://www.colorlogic.de/en/technologie.php"]CrossXColor[/URL] technology. That is why you should not expect a striking difference between basICColor print v3 and CoPrA v2.
    Cheers,
    CW

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  12. #11
    Banned smilem is on a distinguished road
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    My friend made a test, this it87.4 cmyk test chart for color laser.
    The copra profile was generated with 100% black and pure gray the report shows that the better rendering is with i1Profiler despite these advanced settings by copra2.

    Copra 2

    Number of Samples: 1620

    Delta-E Formula dE2000

    Overall - (1620 colors)
    --------------------------------------------------
    Average dE: 2.14
    Max dE: 7.71
    Min dE: 0.11
    StdDev dE: 1.11

    Best 90% - (1457 colors)
    --------------------------------------------------
    Average dE: 1.89
    Max dE: 3.58
    Min dE: 0.11
    StdDev dE: 0.79

    Worst 10% - (163 colors)
    --------------------------------------------------
    Average dE: 4.45
    Max dE: 7.71
    Min dE: 3.58
    StdDev dE: 0.86

    --------------------------------------------------

    i1profiler

    Number of Samples: 1620

    Delta-E Formula dE2000

    Overall - (1620 colors)
    --------------------------------------------------
    Average dE: 1.37
    Max dE: 4.34
    Min dE: 0.05
    StdDev dE: 0.78

    Best 90% - (1457 colors)
    --------------------------------------------------
    Average dE: 1.19
    Max dE: 2.52
    Min dE: 0.05
    StdDev dE: 0.59

    Worst 10% - (163 colors)
    --------------------------------------------------
    Average dE: 2.97
    Max dE: 4.34
    Min dE: 2.54
    StdDev dE: 0.41

    --------------------------------------------------

  13. #12
    Banned smilem is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColorWizard View Post
    Take into account that most of basICColor products, including print, uses ColorLogic [URL="http://www.colorlogic.de/en/technologie.php"]CrossXColor[/URL] technology. That is why you should not expect a striking difference between basICColor print v3 and CoPrA v2.
    Why then the huge price difference? Copra costs 15000Eur?

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    Banned fardada is on a distinguished road
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    Thanks for the info

    Wow, that helps a lot

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